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Archive 2017-2019 Political Thread

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Evan

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The transformation has been in the realm of our culture. Most notably in the areas of gender, marriage, sexual orientation, etc. If you happen to hold traditional values you are attacked, taken to court, harassed and humiliated. You get financially ruined if you refuse to bake a cake for a gay wedding. Why, just because you believe the way the vast majority have believed for as long as we have occupied the planet. It is those that claim to be "tolerant" that no longer accept people who think or behave differently than them. We have men who think they are women dominating womens sporting events. We have transgenders reading to 5 and 6 year old at public libraries. We have gender neutral bathrooms where men can go into restrooms where young girls are. Traditionally marriage has been a union of a man and women. We are no longer allowed to hold that opinion lest we be deemed bigoted, homophobic. I know I'm ruminating. But the culture is different, much different after 8 years of Obama.

1. Masterpiece Cakeshop wedding cake case: Colorado anti-discrimination law covering sexual orientation passed into law in the summer of 2008. That's before Obama was elected. The complaint was filed with the Colorado Commission established to hear discrimination claims (meaning not a federal issue), and the complaint was filed shortly after the attempted ordering of a cake in July 2012. Obama came out in support of same-sex marriage in May 2012. Really hard to see how Obama had anything at all to do with this case getting filed, or the law that made that possible.

2. Men who think they're women dominating sporting events: vast majority of the issues surrounding this are decided to by international bodies like the IOC and CAS (Court of Arbitration for Sport) which have nothing to do with Obama. This is an international problem, and it didn't even originate in the United States. In fact, much of the recent controversy has occurred since Trump was sworn in, and it would be laughable to blame him or Obama for something the President has little influence over and even less control.

3. "Transgender storytime" or Drag Queen story hour: Such "programs" began in December of 2015 in San Francisco. Although you probably won't admit it, Obama's policies and political beliefs were always well to the right of those of San Francisco. This is another issue the President has little control or sway over. If you disagree with that assessment, then why hasn't President Trump stopped it?

4. Gender neutral bathrooms: Yet another international phenomenon, and one that pre-dates President Obama in several countries, and in the United States.

Several cases dating back to the 1990s included attempts by transgender people to obtain access to a different restroom. Has largely been an issue decided on the state level.

However, the Obama admin's Department of Education did issue guidance in January of 2015 stating that Title IX meant gender discrimination in bathrooms related to transgender persons is not allowable. The Obama admin also backed Grimm in Grimm v Gloucester County. The Trump admin has overturned that guidance, and the lawsuits related to this are still unresolved. In fact, they just had a court hearing a few weeks ago, so it is unknown if the Trump or Obama admin interpretation will win out. See story here.

So, I'll give you points for #4. You can certainly put a portion of the responsibility on Obama as it relates to transgender bathrooms. But, it hard to say that's a cultural transformation because court cases and controversy existed prior to Obama's election, and Obama certainly had nothing to do with what other countries have done in this area. However, to be literal, you could say Obama contributed to the cultural changes in that area although determining how much is probably quite difficult since we were headed that way anyway.

Here's my point, the vast majority of the things you're claiming transformed our culture as a result of Obama had either absolutely nothing to do with Obama or very little to do with him. This is not to say that Obama was a good thing for traditional values or the new American culture that is coming to pass. On the contrary, he was quite harmful to both of those. But, your fire should be accurately aimed.
 

Evan

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I agree that many things you mention above have become more open in our society over the last decade, but I don't think Obama was the sinister change agent bringing this stuff to the American community. Culture changes from entertainment (music/TV/movies) have lowered standards of decency for about 40 years now as well as the breakdown of the traditional family unit. If you lay this at the feet of Obama, you have to say that Trump has picked up the torch and is carrying it well. Obama's personal life is actually the antithesis of the culture tailspin with one marriage to one woman and a Dad very active in his daughters lives. No 3 marriages ending in adultry, no porn stars, no strip clubs, no association with Jeff Epstein, no engaging publicly about how is daughter is a "fine piece of donkey"... I could go on

That's the point I was planning to eventually make. Our cultural rot is bigger than both Obama and Trump, and you really cannot argue one has contributed to it without acknowledging the contributions of both. Additionally, our cultural rot started long before either man was on the national stage. It's convenient to try to hang all or most of it on either one (or both), but it's a problem that has come from our society as a whole.
 

Evan

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I’m not gonna be glad some people died via stab wounds versus guns. This highlights a problem BEYOND guns. But whatever. Be “glad” or whatever that means.

To be fair, I don't think he's saying it's a problem specific to guns. I think most people agree it's a problem no matter what tool or instrument is used. And I think most people realize that even if we didn't have guns, other methods exist that allow for mass slaughter. That being said, and you know I'm a 2A absolutist, guns definitely make mass killing a a more efficient enterprise. Of the commonly available tools suitable for killing a bunch of people quickly, and not being limited by the scene environment, guns are at the very top of being able to cause the most deaths in the quickest way possible.

Of course an arsonist can also burn down a building, or someone can use their vehicle as a weapon, but even then guns provide a much easier way to accomplish mass murder than most potential weapons out there. Point is, I don't think we should ignore the contributions that guns make. Although I believe that with our 2nd amendment rights and 350 million guns in circulation that gun control is wholly ineffective, and although I fully realize someone can murder larges amounts of people with a bomb, fire, knife, car, etc -- so killers will always have a way -- we still can't ignore that there is a tradeoff for the liberty and freedom our 2A rights and entire Constitution endow us with.

I think people are short-sighted, but sincere when they want to dispense with the very rights that make our freedom and liberty possible, so we should try to understand the concerns that people have with firearms. At the same time our goal should be to help them understand that if we limit things like the Second Amendment, or limit other Constitutional rights like freedom of speech, or protection against warrantless searches/seizures, we're giving up some of the very things that allow us to have liberty and be free. It's a delicate balancing act, and I don't think we can win the argument in the long-term if the debate is simply about guns. We have to make it about freedom and liberty -- which is easy enough, because it is absolutely is.
 

ghost

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Ole Joe should just ride off into the sunset and save some embarrassment..

Joe Biden slip-up in Iowa tonight.
"Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids."
 

Jacob

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After an ICE raid in Mississippi we have left over 600 citizen children without their parents. There has to be a smarter way to do this.

I don’t know what that way is, but arrest the parents and deal with the kids later is not it.

What should've been happening for a long time in situations like these is the people doing the hiring and running the companies are the ones that need to see some jail time (or some other form of serious consequences). If there were real consequences in this country for using illegal help, we'd see much less of it.

The real muddy part in trying to do anything with these groups of people is the children. IMO, a child to two non-American parents should not be an American citizen, but many of these children (if not all) are citizens because they were born here. Regardless of if I like that law, it is the law and you are destroying the lives of American kids by deporting these parents.

With the cluster we have in Washington these days in Congress and all the rhetoric from both sides, we'll likely never see a real compromise that could help fix these problems, but for this particular issue, I think a fairly common sense solution would be to:
  • End birthright citizenship when neither parent is a US citizen
  • For all illegal immigrants currently in the country with US citizen children, grant them permanent legal resident status. I don't think they should be eligible for US citizenship, but they have children who are citizens so allow them to raise those children and make a life here without fear of deportation.
  • Not directly related to the above two points, but change the laws/beef up the laws that punish workers who hire illegal help.
 

gangstonc

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What should've been happening for a long time in situations like these is the people doing the hiring and running the companies are the ones that need to see some jail time (or some other form of serious consequences). If there were real consequences in this country for using illegal help, we'd see much less of it.

But then Trump would actually get in trouble for the way he runs his clubs and resorts.
 

JayF

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Howdy everyone. Friendly admin reminder that personal attacks/insults will not be tolerated. Keep it as civil as possible for a politics thread.

Thanks,
Wes
 

JayF

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Matt

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Oh Uh

The tables have turned and what was once the media’s favorite message — President Donald Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election — has now grown silent.
Apparently, it’s Bill and Hillary Clinton who’ve been doing the behind-scenes and suspicious dealings with Russia all along. Oh, and perhaps others in the Barack Obama administration, too.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/...Sz6YMOdMjcHyDdA1uTPiGBQFcamk1dIW2h_43RJRo4WT4

Since collusion and obstruction did not work, now it's white supremacy. And ,yes, the previous administration was complicit in a coup attempt against a duly elected president. I hope these people get what is coming to them. I have my doubts however justice will be done.
 

Evan

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Oh Uh

The tables have turned and what was once the media’s favorite message — President Donald Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election — has now grown silent.
Apparently, it’s Bill and Hillary Clinton who’ve been doing the behind-scenes and suspicious dealings with Russia all along. Oh, and perhaps others in the Barack Obama administration, too.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/...Sz6YMOdMjcHyDdA1uTPiGBQFcamk1dIW2h_43RJRo4WT4

I believe that's from 2017...
 

gangstonc

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Since collusion and obstruction did not work, now it's white supremacy. And ,yes, the previous administration was complicit in a coup attempt against a duly elected president. I hope these people get what is coming to them. I have my doubts however justice will be done.
 

Matt

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