gangstonc
Member
Have you folks noticed that Rudy Giuliani has suddenly disappeared from TV after the IG report suggested the FBI leaks tied to him are under investigation? Coincidence?
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Archive 2017-2019 Political Thread
- Thread starter Bama Ravens
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Evan
Member
What Trump does is dangerous, but in this case it doesn't appear to have anything at all to do with him. The guy was crazy and had a conspiratorial grudge against the newspaper. From what I can see, he only mentioned Trump once back in 2015, and it was because Trump was talking about suing Univision for defamation. All he did was comment send it to the newspaper he hated.
This one doesn't appear to have anything to do with Trump and would've eventually happened had he been elected or not.
I hadn't heard of a motive when I posted last night, but I did hear about it early this morning and it was what you and Mike S stated, an act of revenge against the newspaper. I still stand by what I stated and that Trump, with his dangerous rhetoric could incite someone in his fringe sheeple, who is already mentally on the edge, to commit an act of violence thinking he was being patriotic to his country and fearless leader.
Kory
Member
People don't like hearing this, and it is the most unsettling explanations for these kinds of mass shootings, but it is all about mass shooting contagion. Each one of these mass shootings lowers the threshold for the next. It's like a slowly evolving riot or in the words of the Columbine shooters a "revolution", in which more and more join in because they see what the previous person did. The media doesn't help by having wall to wall coverage of it. See the rash of mass shootings at the USPS in the 1980s and 1990s...each prior one sort of "pushed" the next shooter past the threshold to act out on his vision of killing people. There's always a grievance that these folks act upon, but it seems justification is manufactured in some cases. There are often warning signs....months if not years ahead. Sometimes, they may be serious and the ball was dropped by authorities, but in most cases, it often is behavior that is brushed off as just that "disgruntled" person.
There is very little a law will do to prevent this. Let us not kid ourselves, there isn't a one size fits all bandaid fix.
There is very little a law will do to prevent this. Let us not kid ourselves, there isn't a one size fits all bandaid fix.
Kory
Member
Well in a country of 325+ million people, it's not gonna be hard to find a few people who will use someone's words to justify an act of violence.
Good post... I agree
Kory
Member
I’ve sort of developed that opinion after reading this piece from Malcolm Gladwell. He makes a lot of sense.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence
Evan
Member
I completely agree. In fact, we KNOW Trump has incited people to commit violence. There's numerous cases already documented. I've been consistently worried that Trump's rhetoric will lead someone to bomb or commit a shooting at a newspaper or other news outlet. Or, attack one of his enemies he lacerates on Twitter.
It is a dangerous game, and that's why you saw so many people jump on Maxine Waters' comments. They want to preemptively blame someone other than Trump. On almost a daily basis, Trump says more egregious stuff to incite people than what Maxine Waters said. Anyone who is honest will admit that.
I've watched both sides increase their troubling rhetoric with more frequent calls for violence or serious confrontation. My sample size is limited to what I've personally witnessed online, but I've seen way more calls for violence or threats from Trump supporters than by Liberals. Now, that could be because I'm more likely to run across Trump supporters as my online interactions are in the Conservative side of politics. However, I've always believed in listening to other voices and dissenting opinion, so I follow a lot of ideological Liberals & Democrats, too. I've definitely seen violent rhetoric from that side as well, but less than the Trump side. One issue, is that we know there are trolls and Russian bots trying to stoke the flames, so it is difficult to always make sure the rhetoric you've identified is real. But, I'm confident enough to say that I've definitely run across more violent rhetoric from Trump supporters than Liberals. Ironically, the violent rhetoric is almost always justified by saying "I believe this way because the other side is calling for violence."
Regardless of the political bent, violent rhetoric and inflammatory messages are definitely a major issue right now. Maxine Waters certainly didn't help things, but the genesis of violent rhetoric and loss of civility lays at the feet of Donald Trump. I don't think he's smart enough to realize the issue he's created, and even if he was I don't think he'd care.
Evan
Member
I've read that post before and I am in near total agreement. I think the media coverage (past & present) absolutely plays a major role in creating the next shooter. Many media outlets have realized this and are taking steps to mitigate the issue, but disgruntled individuals are constantly looking for a justification to play out their revenge fantasies.
In this case, it was clear this guy was seriously disturbed. A judge even ordered an involuntary mental exam, but I haven't seen any reports of its outcome. The judge ordered the exam as part of the shooter's incessant litigation against those he believed had conspired to wrong him. He made a lot of lurid threats as well. I don't think he fell through the cracks, either. By design our system makes it difficult to punish potential future behavior as a question of freedom and liberty.
It is time for our country to examine what, if anything, we can do (or are willing to do) to better identify and mitigate the potential harm these types of people can do while continuing to protect liberty and freedom. It's not an easy question to answer and I don't pretend to have the answers. This guy was known to be a volatile and conspiratorial-minded grudge holder who had issued dozens of threats against his "enemies." We'll find out more later on, but it seems our current legal system is incapable of handling someone like this.
Evan
Member
Democrats are going to (yet again) overplay their hand as it pertains to Trump's SCOTUS pick. And, they are focused on abortion and gay rights instead of more substantive and broader issues that might help them gain votes. They can't fire up their hard left base anymore than they already are. As usual, their strategy is focused on the wrong issues using the wrong tactics. Going to be amazing when the GOP gains more Senate seats in November and limits losses in the House. Both parties continue to experience an internal war, but the GOP's has largely died down while the Democrat's war is heating up.
Arcadia
Member
For eight years we watched Obama demonize the police in this country. And we have watched officers gunned down in the aftermath. But he delivered his vitriol with more eloquence than Trump ever could so he isn't given the criticism he is due for stoking fires and destroying lives. And I do mean destroying lives. And just so we're clear, it was Obama's divisiveness and his blind supporters that delivered us Trump. I know it wasn't your intention to give anyone a pass, but for those reading this I want to make it crystal clear. The previous administration and today's Democrats/liberals/leftists don't get to slink away from this. It is not by accident that race relations in this country was inflamed during the Obama presidency. It is because we had a Pot-Stirrer-in-Chief that it blossomed and exploded. But, oh, what a fine speaker he was. He was like a magician that way. As long as we were listening to the poetry of his words we weren't paying attention to the sting of them. People are so easily fooled and Obama thought he was oh-so clever.
... neither side is standing on high ground here. Trump was an answer to a problem that was getting worse and worse. It was the wrong answer, and I was screaming it as loudly as I could, but it was an answer nonetheless. We need to face those facts. Every time someone like Maxine Waters opens her mouth and tells her people to harass the current administration it will only cause a deeper divide, reinforce those who fell in with Trump to believe they are on the right side of things, and anyone who may waffle where Trump is concerned, it very well may cause them to lean toward him. Yes, Trump says awful things, tweets utter garbage, and no, I don't approve of him in the least. But when his supporters say "He fights".... what they mean is... he fights for them...people who, for so long, have been told are the coldsore on this country... the bruise on the belly of this land.... the reason your neighbor's lot in life is rotten. They're tired of being blamed for every ill in the world. For eight long years...Obama lectured us on just how rotten we were. So, they don't really care what Trump says so long as he is defending them. Just like it never mattered how Obama ridiculed white people or disparaged police officers or anyone else Obama had an axe to grind against because his supporters had an axe to grind too. This is where we are. And we'll just keep right on being here because nothing is going to change.
As Obama used to say...this is our new normal. Dangerous games, indeed. People have and will continue to lose their lives over this.
- Moderator
- #2,532
Obama demonized the police? I must have missed something. I seem to remember a big public outcry against police brutality when encountering minorities, something that happens so frequently that people easily captured a black person getting killed by police on a cell phone video every couple weeks. Something the public brought to our attention, not the president.
That seems like a real problem that needs attention and needs to be addressed. Something we would want our leaders to address..
Instead we have argument that the black president tried to incite hate against police in America?
Maybe our president thought that racism and the obvious bias against blacks was going a bit too far? But of course it's a secret liberal agenda to get a war started, to pitch cops vs. Americans for some myserious reason.
Maybe the democrats thought that 10 cell phone videos in 6 months of a cop shooting or choking black persons, deserved attention?
Idk I'm sure Obama has his secret agenda to incite the public against the police ... That makes more sense than a human being legitimately outraged at a particular set of circumstances... Such as numerous videos of the police killing civilians who appear to be of no threat...
Seems a bit strange that 12.3% of the population makes up a majority of incarcerated individuals. I guess it's just pot-stirrer-in-chief having fun at our expense.
That seems like a real problem that needs attention and needs to be addressed. Something we would want our leaders to address..
Instead we have argument that the black president tried to incite hate against police in America?
Maybe our president thought that racism and the obvious bias against blacks was going a bit too far? But of course it's a secret liberal agenda to get a war started, to pitch cops vs. Americans for some myserious reason.
Maybe the democrats thought that 10 cell phone videos in 6 months of a cop shooting or choking black persons, deserved attention?
Idk I'm sure Obama has his secret agenda to incite the public against the police ... That makes more sense than a human being legitimately outraged at a particular set of circumstances... Such as numerous videos of the police killing civilians who appear to be of no threat...
Seems a bit strange that 12.3% of the population makes up a majority of incarcerated individuals. I guess it's just pot-stirrer-in-chief having fun at our expense.
Kory
Member
My problem was more that Obama commented on the incidents PRIOR to investigations/trials and all the evidence being released. Why would you want the most powerful man in the country potentially influencing criminal investigations through his publicity? Yes, I realize this is still pertinent regarding Trump, which is why I phrased it that way.
Arcadia
Member
I don't know your age, Kod, so it's possible there's a fair amount you missed or didn't see it at the time for what it was. I can't answer that. But I'm not throwing out blame willy-nilly. And here's something you should definitely know. A study from 2016 of over a thousand police-involved shootings found what researcher Harvard Prof. Roland G. Fryer Jr. calls "the most surprising result of my career": There is no racial bias in police-involved shootings. Not only are blacks not more likely to be fired upon by police than whites in tense moments, the study found that, if anything, they are less likely to be shot at.
Now, you can finish reading over that study at your leisure, but here is another article you can read. It address all the issues you mentioned succinctly. Again, I'm not throwing blame around willy-nilly. The harm caused by Obama's rhetoric was real and lasting. Maybe you don't remember members of BLM, born over the false Michael Brown narrative in Ferguson Missouri, that destroyed lives and businesses, and later went on to famously chant "Pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon" and "You pull out your pistol and you bust them." And many, many more. And then one day a cop in New York sat in his police car and was shot in the head, executed. For being a cop. There's more than one way to incite violence, stoke flames, and rile up a nation. There's the Trump way and there's the Obama way. And both ways have deadly consequences. I'm not asking you to agree with me. But the truth is the truth whether you agree with it or not.
Now, you can finish reading over that study at your leisure, but here is another article you can read. It address all the issues you mentioned succinctly. Again, I'm not throwing blame around willy-nilly. The harm caused by Obama's rhetoric was real and lasting. Maybe you don't remember members of BLM, born over the false Michael Brown narrative in Ferguson Missouri, that destroyed lives and businesses, and later went on to famously chant "Pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon" and "You pull out your pistol and you bust them." And many, many more. And then one day a cop in New York sat in his police car and was shot in the head, executed. For being a cop. There's more than one way to incite violence, stoke flames, and rile up a nation. There's the Trump way and there's the Obama way. And both ways have deadly consequences. I'm not asking you to agree with me. But the truth is the truth whether you agree with it or not.
ARCC
Member
Who could forget his "If I had a son" comment. Despite where your personal feeling's on that case and it's outcome, he spouted that line insanely early for anyone, much less the President.
Kory
Member
- Moderator
- #2,537
I'm old enough to have voted in the past few presidential election, so I'm not having childhood amnesia from early 09- early 17. That Harvard analysis may be true, but that is beside my point - Obama didn't film those videos, Obama didn't start BLM. I witnessed first hand the start of the outrage before it became "mainstream". Your post heavily implies that Obama is a huge influence or aggressor in the outrage against the police and that's far far from the truth. He surely acknowledged the problem, stated there had to be solutions, but the insinuations I interpret from your post seem to place a heavy blame on the president for the anti-police sentiment and that's ridiculous from my perspective. I was active on liberal and democratic havens and I never once saw anything Obama said or did influence the people who truely fueled the flames and reached out to hundreds of thousands expressing their disdain for police. The actions of the police, the videos, the liberals and the media had a substantially larger impact than anything I've seen from Obama. I am in full agreement in other viewpoints that the media and their wall to wall coverage of mass shootings is very bad, and evidence shows it may increase the odds of the next mass shooting occurring. If that I have little doubt. As one who was very active in communities who seemed egregiously anti-cop, Obama was hardly a factor in their justifications.
Kory
Member
Not the biggest fan of Brett Kavanaugh, who is supposedly the "front-runner" in the Supreme Court justice pick.
gangstonc
Member
Is he the one that says presidents can’t be subpoenaed, sued, indicted, etc?
My gosh that was disturbing... I keep thinking how do we produce people who think like this?
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