You can't reason with Matt. Someone points out to him where he is wrong on something about Trump and he won't acknowledge it. He has one of the worst cases of TDS I've ever seen. Trump could commit high crimes and treason (who knows if he may or may not have dabbled into that already) and Matt will defend him. I don't know why, but he will. I don't understand him at all
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Archive 2017-2019 Political Thread
- Thread starter Bama Ravens
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I'd like your input on a few things.
The prosecutors office denies they were actively investigating Burisma. They had just finished doing so a year before the firing. Do you have any evidence besides the statement from the fired prosecutor that there was any investigation ongoing?
Biden was involved in removing the prosecutor, as were the IMF, US embassy in Ukraine, other global powers and the citizens of Ukraine protesting in the streets. Seems to me like there's a legitimate reason this guy was wanted gone. Do you think this was a Joe Biden headed agenda?
Hunter Biden used an American LLC to receive his payment from Burisma. Not some overseas shell company. Burisma & it's CEO was being investigated for tax evasion. Does that seem odd to you?
skelly
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I guess it was a Joe Biden headed agenda as he was the point man for all the money and the program that the Obama administration came up with to aide the Ukraine after the Russians annexed the Crimea. Who knows where all that money went? Hunter obviously got some. The Obama energy stimulus, allegedly,
and I don’t doubt it lined the pockets of a lot of cronies so why are we surprised that’s what people are saying about the money he sent to the Ukraine. They were strings attached I’m sure some above board and some below. Below being that Hunter Biden is suddenly an energy expert worth 50 G. A month. Must be nice. I guess if he was helping him get into a good university then it would be fair wouldn’t it. No.
Evan
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Where did I comment on Biden's actions in Ukraine? That wasn't mentioned in my response to you. You keep trying to claim things that haven't even been mentioned in our discussion. If you're not interested in a good-faith discussion and simply want to regurgitate partisan talking points then say so.
But since you refuse to respond to anything I've actually written, I'll actually respond to what you said in a good-faith attempt to explain my position.
There is no doubt that Hunter Biden was not qualified to be on the board of Burisma, and that him being on the board reeks of him trading upon his last name. I don't like it and I think it is wrong. Do you think it is wrong that Trump is employing family members in the White House who are actively using the Trump name overseas in an attempt to elicit business?
As for your claim that the Ukrainian prosecutor was "looking into how Hunter got his job" do you have some evidence for that statement other than something Rudy Giuliani claimed? Everything I've seen simply mentioned Burisma was being investigated because its primary owner was implicated in a tax fraud scandal.
Hunter Biden never under investigation
Fired Prosecutor was not investigating Burisma or Hunter Biden. Burisma investigation was started by a different prosecutor BEFORE Sholkin (prosecutor Biden, the EU, IMF, and numerous other groups tried to have removed) took office, involved actions relating to Burisma's owners that occurred before Hunter Biden joined the board, and Sholkin himself never took any action on Burisma whatsoever.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ide-trumps-false-claims-about-ukraine-bidens/
Notably, Kaleniuk was critical of Hunter Biden joining the board of Burisma, and said it posed a conflict of interest problem. She long followed the Burisma case as it passed through the offices of 3 different prosecutors. Kalenkiuk is the leader of an independent NGO dedicated to reforming corruption in Ukraine. She studied in the United States, and has nothing but praise for the actions of Joe Biden and the Obama administration in removing Sholkin who she says "absolutely refused to investigate Burisma."
In 2016, Vice President Biden demanded that Ukraine fire Prosecutor General Victor Shokin, who Trump might have called a “very good prosecutor,” but he was seen by reformers in Kyiv as a disaster. A year earlier, Kalemniuk’s watchdog organization had pushed to dismiss Shokin for neglecting multiple corruption cases.
“Here is why I do not say anything about Hunter Biden,” Kaleniuk explained. “Vice President Biden called for Ukraine to fire Shokin not because of the Burisma investigation, absolutely not, but because Ukraine’s prosecutor general did not investigate Burisma. U.S. Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt insisted [in early 2016] that Shokin should be investigating Burisma. The U.S. government had a clear position: The Burisma probe was killed by Shokin.” And the U.S. thought it and other cases should not have been closed.
One of Ukraine’s recent prosecutor generals, Yuriy Lutsenko, closed the Burisma investigation himself “when there was still a chance to define the truth” and then gave an interview to the Washington website The Hill complaining it was the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch, who gave him a “do not prosecute” list.
That is the exact opposite of what happened in the case, which Kaleniuk has followed closely.
She is convinced that Trump and his helpers had been preparing the Biden “scandal” for a long time. “They started plotting it in October last year, possibly even earlier,” she said. One of the messages Lutsenko conveyed, Kaleniuk told The Daily Beast, was that Giuliani had consulted with Lutsenko, Ukraine’s then-prosecutor general, for months.
“Trump and Giuliani needed him to convey a message that Ukraine had intervened in American elections,” she said. “Lutsenko and prosecutor Konstantin Kulik have been giving Giuliani information on this case purely with an agenda to save their careers, inventing the story about the Biden investigation.”
Why would this anti-corruption advocate, who is STILL begging for Burisma to be investigated, praise Biden's actions and condemn Trump's? She has a long track record as an independent advocate of major structural reforms to the Ukrainian legal system to prevent corruption and the perversion of justice. She demanded Burisma be investigated long before Trump even decided to run for President, and has continued her demand that Burisma be investigated to this day. But, she has now stated numerous times that Hunter Biden has nothing to do with the corruption at Burisma. The oligarch who controlled Burisma probably hoped that hiring Hunter Biden would allow him to avoid further investigation, and that it would prevent the prosecutor he seemingly paid off from being fired. That back-fired and resulted in the prosecutor he liked being fired -- largely due to pressure by Joe Biden.
Again, DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE that Hunter Biden was being investigated or that Joe Biden's actions did anything but HURT Burisma and the oligarch controlling it? I've provided nearly a dozen links and quotes to you today. A variety of sources. You've yet to provide a single one. Just opinion based talking points with absolutely no evidence or source to back them up.
Evan
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As you'll see, you're not going to receive any evidence, links, or anything that contradict your claims. You're just going to receive more smoke and mirror talking points that say absolutely nothing other than: "Trump said Biden is corrupt. I like Trump. Biden is corrupt."
He's been asked for evidence at least 4 times today. Zero response to that. Just a rehashes the stream-of-consciousness "Biden must be corrupt because I think he is and Trump said so."
Yeah, Hunter Biden had a conflict of interest. As anyone with a brain acknowledges. The problem for Trump and his sycophants is that they believe that instantly means Joe Biden interfered and intervened with the Burisma investigation because they know that's what Trump would do if one of his spawn were under investigation (which several of his kids have been several times, but they don't want to discuss Ivanka and Don Jr. barely escaping a fraud indictment in Manhattan after Daddy's lawyer paid off the Manhattan DA).
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.me...-she-avoided-criminal-indictment-in-2012/amp/
They know Trump is corrupt and would've done exactly what he accused Biden of. They can't admit that so they have to pretend that Biden is corrupt like Trump is. Even though EVERY SINGLE reputable and independent authority involved with the Burisma case said Biden did the right thing and potentially exposed his son to GREATER scrutiny and investigation than had he done nothing and let Sholkin stay in office because he'd given clear signals he wasn't ever going to investigate Burisma.
It's more fantasy and fabrication to justify Trump's corruption and immorality. Because unless they claim Biden is just as bad the cognitive dissonance becomes overwhelming. If they actually had to admit that Trump is flouting decades of anti-corruption best practices and anti-nepotism rules they'd melt.
It's a very tired and old propaganda tactic. If you've got a problem, accuse your political enemy of that very thing. After all, how can you be corrupt and self-dealing if you already accused your opponent of the same? "I'm no worse than the other guy, and I made the claim first." It's similar to how the old Politburo used to undermine each other so they'd avoid the next purge by Stalin. It should be no surprise that a life-long liberal Democrat from New York is well acquainted with Stalinist propaganda and purges.
gangstonc
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Why are state department officials communicating with WhasApp?
Because no one has introduced them to Discord yet?
Evan
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Maybe Trump made WhatsApp the unofficial encrypted messaging app of the US government, and in exchange for doing so, Facebook is giving him a cut of the revenue and also helping him dig up dirt on Warren. I think Trump would take that deal in a second, I know Zuckerberg would, and you can be damn sure the GOP would be totally fine with it.
Everyone wins. Or something...
gangstonc
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It just reminds me of Hillary’s emails. No trail. Hiding official emails.
CIA top lawyer handed over a criminal referral to the DOJ. She is a trump appointee. The DOJ squashed it. Amazing.
skelly
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Evan, you asked me to back up a claim that I didn’t make. Then you want to be ugly about it because I didn’t try to back up a claim that I didn’t even make.
I stated that I read articles that present the same information, some condemn Trump and exonerate Biden, while others do the opposite.
It’s absolutely true that both sides are using foreigners for dirt on the other side as in 2016.
Funny thing how Trump and Guiliani are admitting to it, even to the Daily Beast. I see that’s really under your skin but you assumed that’s what I was referring. I don’t know how they think the collusion conspiracy got started in the Ukraine but there’s probably something there.
I know back in 2016 Trump said he wished the Russians would steal Hillary’s emails. I’m nueive enough to believe that hey, that’s where the collusion idea got started, just Trump dumb enough to say publicly. But if all the investigations including mueller couldn’t make the case for congress to move on it then oh well...but if they have him dead to rights on the texts and the phone call then open the closed doors and by all means vote on the impeachment...whenever congress comes back from recess. I really think they’re damned if they do damned if they don’t at this point. Look at Bill Clinton. He comes out of impeachment a democrat hero and star. Even years later after saying these people (Obamas) used to bring him and Hillary coffee.
PS-politburo liberal New York stalinists- that was rich!
I stated that I read articles that present the same information, some condemn Trump and exonerate Biden, while others do the opposite.
It’s absolutely true that both sides are using foreigners for dirt on the other side as in 2016.
Funny thing how Trump and Guiliani are admitting to it, even to the Daily Beast. I see that’s really under your skin but you assumed that’s what I was referring. I don’t know how they think the collusion conspiracy got started in the Ukraine but there’s probably something there.
I know back in 2016 Trump said he wished the Russians would steal Hillary’s emails. I’m nueive enough to believe that hey, that’s where the collusion idea got started, just Trump dumb enough to say publicly. But if all the investigations including mueller couldn’t make the case for congress to move on it then oh well...but if they have him dead to rights on the texts and the phone call then open the closed doors and by all means vote on the impeachment...whenever congress comes back from recess. I really think they’re damned if they do damned if they don’t at this point. Look at Bill Clinton. He comes out of impeachment a democrat hero and star. Even years later after saying these people (Obamas) used to bring him and Hillary coffee.
PS-politburo liberal New York stalinists- that was rich!
gangstonc
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After this "totally appropriate phone call", Trump
1) Locked up the transcripts
2) Gave contradictory explanations of why he did it.
3) Blamed it on three other cabinet members
4) Ignored any subpoenas about it.
5) Said he really didn't wanna do it in the first place.
makes perfect sense.
1) Locked up the transcripts
2) Gave contradictory explanations of why he did it.
3) Blamed it on three other cabinet members
4) Ignored any subpoenas about it.
5) Said he really didn't wanna do it in the first place.
makes perfect sense.
gangstonc
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gangstonc
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Kory
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That's the truth. I'm an indy and I can't find one of the 387 Dem candidates I can support. If just one Dem would not take such a radical position on abortion, gun control, and the Green New Deal energy junk... I would give them consideration. But none of them have the cajones to take a stand. Just like the majority of the Repubs, know Trump is corrupt and know he has abused his power and obstructed justice, but don't have the guts to stand up and publicly call him out.
gangstonc
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Trump showing where is allegiances lie with pulling out of N Syria. What a disaster.
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I don’t chime in on this thread often but this is a horrible decision on so many levels. It is going to hard to find future groups to lead fights in places we can’t if we abandon them and leave them to die.
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