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Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

Union said:
I think the >210 s just because it's rated with a non official DI, I think that's the highest they should be able to give it pretty fairly, Cactus 117 I'd say likely yielded a rating higher than 210mph based on whatever math they did for that, but they did not rate Piedmont as such, sticking with >210, just like thism if u get what I mean
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Cactus 117 really is an infinitely easier feat to say “yeah this is objectively an EF5 damage indicator.” compared to enderlin. Which is still solid, but not super high end.
 
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tornado examiner said:
Idk ask the surveyors at this point. That's the only way we’ll get solid answers.
I know we like to harp on about certain surveyors having absolutely zero clue what they’re doing but nws grand forks seems to know.
Unless they were being too generous and the EF5 drought really will never end.
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Ohh also another possible explanation I've seen of this, the marks not matching the length of the car, is that the markings were made by the fittings on the top and bottom of the car hitting the ground every time it made a complete rotation, which aren't exactly on the ends of the car, which would explain the gaps in the holes throughout the path, but they don't all line up and the ends are still pushed in a good bit so I don't think it fully explains it, but one of the more interesting hypothesis I've seen
 
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tornado examiner said:
Cactus 117 really is an infinitely easier feat to say “yeah this is objectively an EF5 damage indicator.” compared to enderlin. Which is still solid, but not super high end.
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Yeah I heavily agree, Cactus also had so many more indicators of the highest end intensity comparatively, lofting and destruction of dozens of cars for nearly a mile I believe, multi ton pieces of scrap rolled across the landscape for nearly 2 miles (I believe), complete destruction of large trees in Walking Farm and Calumet, ground was absolutely plastered with dirt and mud at least in Walling and Calumet, insane crop damage to mature winter wheat, I mean it's just the most slam dunk it can get imo. Walling Farm and Calumet Industries were on the same street as Cactus btw but I assume u know that just wanted to say
 
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Can we point out how clear it is that the other tanker cars in that very much did go airborne for a short bit though? For certain area’s immediately next to the tracks lack gouges and I think the wheel bogies may indicate something like this too. I wish I had a drawing tool that I could make my point with.

The grassy part doesn’t have any noticeable gouges accept for one big hole which confuses me,

Gosh I wish I could articulate what I'm seeing.
 
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tornado examiner said:
Can we point out how clear it is that the other tanker cars in that very much did go airborne for a short bit though? For certain area’s immediately next to the tracks lack gouges and I think the wheel bogies may indicate something like this too. I wish I had a drawing tool that I could make my point with.

The grassy part doesn’t have any noticeable gouges accept for one big hole which confuses me,

Gosh I wish I could articulate what I'm seeing.
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I think I know what u mean, the last car still attached does seem like it went airborne for at least a little bit, as I think the one rolled out into the field did, but they also then got laid back down and dragged the rest of the way, for the other 2 cars tho I can see some dragging even in the grass. Still according to Miller et al. 50m or more of lofting, completely off the ground with 0 touches of a large compact object (such as these cars) is EF5 indicative, though I don't think this distance reaches that, once again not saying it's *not* EF5, but I think this always good to have these discussions.

Also, I've seen some ppl try to explain the markings in the fields as the wheels of the railcar falling off and making them (they go on for way too long), then somehow they randomly got shoved backwards back to the tracks (that wouldn't happen) and for the last point, the wheels come off way before the car is in the field, that's just how they're connected, car falls over, most of the time the wheels aren't staying.
Screenshot_20251015-020708.png
 
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They wouldn’t revise it back down to EF4 after three months of analysis from several experts Because of how ambiguous and simplified the calculations are right?
 
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Xyls said:
So are you of the position that Enderlin is not an EF5, Union?
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I think it was an EF5 strength tornado, what it did and the truth of what is needed to do it, a lot more confusing. Do I think it will get downgraded, no. Do I think unless other examples of this type of damage are looked into with the same amount of detail, past or future, that this is a strange rating, yea kinda.

Kinda on the fence, it's just such a weird time to implement this stuff but with such an extreme example I kinda get it, but there are real things to be talked about that is "wrong" with the calculations done.

In terms of non-standard EF5 DIs, I like the idea but the only other ones we have are Philadelphia (not an EF5 imo) and Piedmont (most clear EF5 you can get really)
 
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tornado examiner said:
They wouldn’t revise it back down to EF4 after three months of analysis from several experts Because of how ambiguous and simplified the calculations are right?
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No definitely not, not after all this time, they've already come to the conclusion that it's fine they're this way, stuff was probably figured out a month before it got officially upgraded.
 
Xyls said:
For all the doubt being cast on Enderlin I will note that the official rating of Enderlin is 210 MPH well under the potential 266 for the thrown/tumbled rail car. Which probably gives a really big buffer for Enderlin to be downgraded.

I for one don't think there is really any argument against the EF5 rating for Enderlin without an unreasonable suspension of disbelief that that the train car "rolled" the whole distance.
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Btw, welcome newbie @Xyls ‘
!
 
Western_KS_Wx said:
Just noticed this, but yes. Now that I really look at it, there may actually be two vehicles that are crumpled/smashed together. Either way, this is another pretty extreme example of vehicle damage. You can see the big Doritos sign in the background that was on the side of the truck. Again, no idea where this truck came from.
View attachment 47320
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Thank You!! The Greensburg tornado was much stronger than I initially thought.
 
AJS said:
If I had to make a subjective top 4 here’s what mine would be:

1: Piedmont/El Reno 2011
2: Bridge Creek/Moore 1999
3: Smithville MS 2011.
4: Tri State 1925
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Fair, I would go:

1. Tri-state 1925
2. Piedmont 2011 (probably good argument for top 1)
3. Bridge Creek 1999
4. Jarrell 1997 (this is definitely number 1 for damage alone and considering it may not have actually been that slow based on recent revelations, could get that spot for me)
5. Moore 2013
6. Smithville.

As extreme as smithville was, I personally dont see any argument for it being top 3 at least on the damage end of things, and as for tri-state it was moving even faster than smithville was yet produced such extreme damage for such a long time.

I agree with Western though in that ranking tornadoes is splitting hairs and quite pointless honestly, at 200+ most things are gone anyway.
 
HAwkmoon said:
Fair, I would go:

1. Tri-state 1925
2. Piedmont 2011 (probably good argument for top 1)
3. Bridge Creek 1999
4. Jarrell 1997 (this is definitely number 1 for damage alone and considering it may not have actually been that slow based on recent revelations, could get that spot for me)
5. Moore 2013
6. Smithville.

As extreme as smithville was, I personally dont see any argument for it being top 3 at least on the damage end of things, and as for tri-state it was moving even faster than smithville was yet produced such extreme damage for such a long time.

I agree with Western though in that ranking tornadoes is splitting hairs and quite pointless honestly, at 200+ most things are gone anyway.
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I agree. Glad you put Moore 2013 on there as well. That beast was seriously insanely violent and produced some of the most insane ground scouring i’ve ever seen.
 
tornado examiner said:
It was 36 tons and not perfectly cylindrical….
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Yes that is true, but the cylindrical shape of a tanker probably helped it *incredibly* to do so, more boxy vehicles and objects get bent into a circle-ish shape periodically while rolling anyways, this just being flung through open fields with 0 obstruction, circle shape 100% helped, not to mention surface area. Also more proof that it rolled, the railing along the bottom sides of the car were bent around it like a pipe cleaner, that is very clear visual evidence that it was not plopped into one spot.
 
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