Archive 2017-2019 Political Thread

[Kory]

What about ammunition limits doesn’t work in other countries? Why can’t we follow an Australian model?

And the entire country is ignorant on this because we haven’t done enough. We don’t have experience in trying to fix the problem.

Wait, you wanna follow the policy of a country that has little success in reducing gun related incidents?

The 1996‐1997 National Firearms Agreement (NFA) in Australia introduced strict gun laws, primarily as a reaction to the mass shooting in Port Arthur, Tasmania, in 1996, where 35 people were killed. Despite the fact that several researchers using the same data have examined the impact of the NFA on firearm deaths, a consensus does not appear to have been reached. In this paper, we reanalyze the same data on firearm deaths used in previous research, using tests for unknown structural breaks as a means to identifying impacts of the NFA. The results of these tests suggest that the NFA did not have any large effects on reducing firearm homicide or suicide rates

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onlinelibrary.wiley.com

The development of legislation aimed at reducing the incidence of firearm-related death is an ongoing interest within the spheres of criminology, public policy, and criminal justice. Although a body of research has examined the impacts of significant epochs of regulatory reform upon firearm-related suicides and homicides in countries like Australia, where strict nationwide firearms regulations were introduced in 1996, relatively little research has considered the occurrence of a specific type of homicide: mass shooting events. The current paper examines the incidence of mass shootings in Australia and New Zealand (a country that is socioeconomically similar to Australia, but with a different approach to firearms regulation) over a 30 year period. It does not find support for the hypothesis that Australia’s prohibition of certain types of firearms has prevented mass shootings, with New Zealand not experiencing a mass shooting since 1997 despite the availability in that country of firearms banned in Australia. These findings are discussed in the context of social and economic trends.

Mass Shootings in Australia and New Zealand: A Descriptive Study of Incidence

The development of legislation aimed at reducing the incidence of firearm-related death is an ongoing interest within the spheres of criminology, public policy,

papers.ssrn.com

The second paper was written prior to the Christchurch shooting and the 2019 Darwin, Australia mass shooting. But their points are still valid over the 30 year study period.

 

[Kory]

For those who constantly point to Australia and other countries are NOT comparable to the U.S.

Why Gun Control Doesn't Explain Australia's Low Homicide Rates | Ryan McMaken

Gun control advocates often point to Australia as an example of how "banning" guns leads to significant declines in homicide rates.Whether or not the much vaunted gun laws were ever fully implemented remains a matter of debate, but data does indeed suggest Australia's already-low homicide rates...

mises.org

The Myth That Australia's Gun Laws Reduced Gun Homicides | Ryan McMaken

"I researched the strictly tightened gun laws in Britain and Australia," data analyst Leah Libresco wrote in The Washington Post. "Neither nation experienced drops in mass shootings or other gun related-crime that could be attributed to their buybacks and bans."

fee.org

 

[Kory]

Also being pro 2nd amendment makes you fringe. Good to know.

 

[gangstonc]

Also being pro 2nd amendment makes you fringe. Good to know.

I’m pro 2nd amendment, but there needs to be more done.

 

[gangstonc]

For those who constantly point to Australia and other countries are NOT comparable to the U.S.

Why Gun Control Doesn't Explain Australia's Low Homicide Rates | Ryan McMaken

Gun control advocates often point to Australia as an example of how "banning" guns leads to significant declines in homicide rates.Whether or not the much vaunted gun laws were ever fully implemented remains a matter of debate, but data does indeed suggest Australia's already-low homicide rates...

mises.org

The Myth That Australia's Gun Laws Reduced Gun Homicides | Ryan McMaken

"I researched the strictly tightened gun laws in Britain and Australia," data analyst Leah Libresco wrote in The Washington Post. "Neither nation experienced drops in mass shootings or other gun related-crime that could be attributed to their buybacks and bans."

fee.org

42% decrease in homicide rates.

 

[Kory]

I’m pro 2nd amendment, but there needs to be more done.

No, you were pinned in an argument so you refer to my stance as fringe.

You still can’t defend you arguments. All feels. No facts.

 

[gangstonc]

No, you were pinned in an argument so you refer to my stance as fringe.

You still can’t defend you arguments. All feels. No facts.

I’m not pinned. How many mass shootings have there been in Australia since 1996? How many were there before?

I want action. If it doesn’t work, try something else.

 

[Kory]

I’m not pinned. How many mass shootings have there been in Australia since 1996? How many were there before?

I literally just posted 2 studies from a quick google search, that you obviously failed to read, showing no difference in homicide rates. Same in regard to mass shootings.

I don’t have time to post more. But there are MANY papers discussing the MANY caveats to the Australia talking points.

 

[gangstonc]

I literally just posted 2 studies from a quick google search, that you obviously failed to read, showing no difference in homicide rates. Same in regard to mass shootings.

I don’t have time to post more. But there are MANY papers discussing the MANY caveats to the Australia talking points.

The studies you posted did show a difference in homicide rates, butntried to explain them away.

When you get back, check on those mass shooting numbers.

 

[Kory]

Why a 10-round mag cap? Why not 8? Or 6? What studies have shown what helps preventing mass shootings? Can you post those?

What about the cap of having X-amount if ammo sold in a single sitting? What studies have shown limiting that helps mass shootings?

I can link lots of studies (not right now) showing the AWB being a failure. But a quick google search shows the lack of efficacy of the last ban.

 

[Kory]

Also, as Evan correctly stated, gun homicide rates have dropped in the U.S. reaching historic lows since tracking.

 

[gangstonc]

Why a 10-round mag cap? Why not 8? Or 6? What studies have shown what helps preventing mass shootings? Can you post those?

What about the cap of having X-amount if ammo sold in a single sitting? What studies have shown limiting that helps mass shootings?

I can link lots of studies (not right now) showing the AWB being a failure. But a quick google search shows the lack of efficacy of the last ban.

I referenced the lack of success of the Clintons ban several posts ago. It didn’t work.

Will a mag cal work? I dunno.
Will ammo limits work? I dunno.

We haven’t tried it. We have barely tried anything. I want that to change more than anything. I want action.

I do know that Australia was able to solve their mass shooting problem.

 

[gangstonc]

Remember when Trump said a president should be impeached if the market drops 1000 points in 2 days? We may reach that point tomorrow.

Trump has given away our biggest agricultural customer to Russia and Brazil.

 

[gangstonc]

Why did he say Toledo?

 

[Kory]

Why did he say Toledo?
View attachment 1931

Combo to Texas and Ohio? I’ve done that reading off notes in a presentation before.

 

[Evan]

Because there is nothing reasonable that can be done with 500 rounds of high velocity ammo.

500rds? That doesn't last very long at the range. Especially with two people shooting. That's about 8 mags a person. Last time I went shooting I went through about 1500rds, and I'm not even a frequent shooters. There's guys that pound out thousands of rounds a week (or weekend) on a very regular basis -- as in 50+ times a year.

 

[ghost]

Kory... you and I have been down the high capacity path disagreement path before and we still are on opposite sides of it. You have stated my opinion on the subject is stupid and someone with my position on that issue is not as well versed in firearms as you (even though I have been shooting firearms for nearly 50 years). I'm a left brained guy. I'm very analytical and objective. I'm an engineer by degree and vocation so analysis has been my way of life (can be a curse too). I cannot rationally see how an AR15 or AK47 that is limited to a 6 or 10 round clip is as lethal as one that utilizes a 30 round or 60 round clip. That is what I understand you are saying i.e. high capacity makes no difference in lethality. I contend the evil people that murdered at El Paso, Dayton, Orlando, Las Vegas, etc. would have taken fewer lives if their guns had smaller clips and were forced to reload more often because the number of shot fired within a certain time frame would be much fewer.

 

[Matt]

Then it wasn’t your day and you better be a better shot than them.

that is exactly the response I expected from you. Nope, sorry but I will always be more armed than my adversaries!

 

[Matt]

Kory... you and I have been down the high capacity path disagreement path before and we still are on opposite sides of it. You have stated my opinion on the subject is stupid and someone with my position on that issue is not as well versed in firearms as you (even though I have been shooting firearms for nearly 50 years). I'm a left brained guy. I'm very analytical and objective. I'm an engineer by degree and vocation so analysis has been my way of life (can be a curse too). I cannot rationally see how an AR15 or AK47 that is limited to a 6 or 10 round clip is as lethal as one that utilizes a 30 round or 60 round clip. That is what I understand you are saying i.e. high capacity makes no difference in lethality. I contend the evil people that murdered at El Paso, Dayton, Orlando, Las Vegas, etc. would have taken fewer lives if their guns had smaller clips and were forced to reload more often because the number of shot fired within a certain time frame would be much fewer.

Do you really think people intent on causing mass murder will limit the number of magazines they have ? They will do what ever it takes to achieve their goal. No law can prevent evil!

 

[Evan]

Being so pro gun puts you on the fringe.

This is just as much a public safety issue as a gun rights issue.

Arbitrary limits in other countries is working extremely well.

Countries with heavy gun regulation like Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela, Brazil (until recently), El Salvador, Honduras, etc?

I could go on. Most of those countries outright ban private ownership or heavily restrict it. Many of them restrict the type of weapon, magazine size, number of firearms per person, and restrict gun sales to government stores run by the military or police.

I haven't looked recently at the gun homicide rates for those countries, but I almost guarantee you every single one of them is higher than the rate here in the United States -- or at worst -- very comparable.

Most of those countries have huge issues with illegal guns, and therefore the criminals are armed while normal civilians are not.

Some of those countries have a lot of guns in them. It's just virtually all of them are illegal or not registered. Oddly enough, I can't think of any one of those countries that has a problem with mass shooting (Brazil has had a few). Why is that?

Why aren't those countries compared to the United States? Why is it they have fewer overall numbers of guns yet have higher rates of violence and gun deaths? Why is it that even with their strict laws that criminals still have guns?

But you want to know what the major difference is between the United States and other countries? They don't have 350 million+ guns or 330 million people.

You have explicitly said you just want to try stuff until something works. Thats not how liberty and freedom work. That's the antithesis of how to properly make policy. Doing something just to do it is not a serious way to address gun violence and mass shootings.

By the way, I wrote a very detailed post to you earlier covering a number of the policy items you said you'd support. I would appreciate if you'd give it a response.