Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

[slenker]

Smithville was absolutely up there with the most violent recorded - I'm unsure of where this "lowballing" if you can call it that is coming from, to be honest. IMO it had the clearest evidence of winds well into the EF5 range than any other tornado that was well documented. If you argue about the homes being not as well constructed, which doesn't seem likely to me but I'm willing to accept that, then good luck arguing against the contextuals that were pretty comfortably above other EF5s. Even EF5s from the same day that Smithville came from were clearly not as intense as Smithville's damage. It arguably inflicted the most intense forest damage of all time after leaving town, scoured grass very consistently through its entire violent stage, slabbed everything in the path of the core and granulated debris more impressively than other EF5s, and was located within one of the most extreme tornadic environments ever seen during this phase of its life.

Again, I'm not an expert on building quality or anything so a lot of the time I don't know what I'm looking at when it comes to construction quality. I would be willing to accept homes in Smithville not being super well constructed, or anything - but if anyone argues that Smithville shouldn't be looked at as a top tornado because the construction quality of the homes wasn't great, then IMO that's almost purposefully overlooking everything else it did.

 

[ColdFront]

Smithville was absolutely up there with the most violent recorded - I'm unsure of where this "lowballing" if you can call it that is coming from, to be honest. IMO it had the clearest evidence of winds well into the EF5 range than any other tornado that was well documented. If you argue about the homes being not as well constructed, which doesn't seem likely to me but I'm willing to accept that, then good luck arguing against the contextuals that were pretty comfortably above other EF5s. Even EF5s from the same day that Smithville came from were clearly not as intense as Smithville's damage. It arguably inflicted the most intense forest damage of all time after leaving town, scoured grass very consistently through its entire violent stage, slabbed everything in the path of the core and granulated debris more impressively than other EF5s, and was located within one of the most extreme tornadic environments ever seen during this phase of its life

Which is complete horse sh1t. The presentation that the surveyors from MEG gave specifically noted Smithville was no normal town as most new residences were built “above and beyond code”. This is just nonsense being spouted for the sake of being controversial.

 

[tornado examiner]

Smithville was absolutely up there with the most violent recorded - I'm unsure of where this "lowballing" if you can call it that is coming from, to be honest. IMO it had the clearest evidence of winds well into the EF5 range than any other tornado that was well documented. If you argue about the homes being not as well constructed, which doesn't seem likely to me but I'm willing to accept that, then good luck arguing against the contextuals that were pretty comfortably above other EF5s. Even EF5s from the same day that Smithville came from were clearly not as intense as Smithville's damage. It arguably inflicted the most intense forest damage of all time after leaving town, scoured grass very consistently through its entire violent stage, slabbed everything in the path of the core and granulated debris more impressively than other EF5s, and was located within one of the most extreme tornadic environments ever seen during this phase of its life.

Again, I'm not an expert on building quality or anything so a lot of the time I don't know what I'm looking at when it comes to construction quality. I would be willing to accept homes in Smithville not being super well constructed, or anything - but if anyone argues that Smithville shouldn't be looked at as a top tornado because the construction quality of the homes wasn't great, then IMO that's just almost purposefully overlooking everything else it did.

And besides several of the homes it slabbed were confirmed as being sufficiently well built with proper anchoring.

What's with this sudden paradigm shift that came out of nowhere?
It is an objective top 3, top 5 at worst, but equal to the 2011 EL-reno EF5 in my opinion.

To put it any lower than top 10 is just plain silly.

 

[TH2002]

Motion doesn't perfectly equate to intensity, and while the instantaneous winds were in the 300-400 range the structural and even contextual damage (3s) isn't as impressive as it's set out to be.

 

[slenker]

And besides several of the homes it slabbed were confirmed as being sufficiently well built with proper anchoring.

What's with this sudden paradigm shift that came out of nowhere?

I don't think it's a paradigm shift, or anything. It was one user saying this. I just have no idea where this idea of the homes all-the-sudden not being as well constructed as previously thought came from.

Which is complete horse sh1t. The presentation that the surveyors from MEG gave specifically noted Smithville was no normal town as most new residences were built “above and beyond code”. This is just nonsense being spouted for the sake of being controversial.

If anything, MEG giving this tornado an EF5 rating also should work in its favor as far as being the most intense tornado ever recorded goes. Not even they could lowball it lmao

I don't think Smithville was the most intense ever recorded, but it's easily in my top 3.

 

[tornado examiner]

I don't think it's a paradigm shift, or anything. It was one user saying this. I just have no idea where this idea of the homes all-the-sudden not being as well constructed as previously thought came from.

If anything, MEG giving this tornado an EF5 rating also should work in its favor as far as being the most intense tornado ever recorded goes. Not even they could lowball it lmao

Thankfully its not as bad as those mouth breathers who genuinely think its a low end EF4 but still.
Come on now.

 

[ColdFront]

Here is the video presentation from Richard okulski who was a meteorologist at Meg at the time.

 

[GrenadinesDes]

Smithville was absolutely up there with the most violent recorded - I'm unsure of where this "lowballing" if you can call it that is coming from, to be honest. IMO it had the clearest evidence of winds well into the EF5 range than any other tornado that was well documented. If you argue about the homes being not as well constructed, which doesn't seem likely to me but I'm willing to accept that, then good luck arguing against the contextuals that were pretty comfortably above other EF5s. Even EF5s from the same day that Smithville came from were clearly not as intense as Smithville's damage. It arguably inflicted the most intense forest damage of all time after leaving town, scoured grass very consistently through its entire violent stage, slabbed everything in the path of the core and granulated debris more impressively than other EF5s, and was located within one of the most extreme tornadic environments ever seen during this phase of its life.

Again, I'm not an expert on building quality or anything so a lot of the time I don't know what I'm looking at when it comes to construction quality. I would be willing to accept homes in Smithville not being super well constructed, or anything - but if anyone argues that Smithville shouldn't be looked at as a top tornado because the construction quality of the homes wasn't great, then IMO that's almost purposefully overlooking everything else it did.

Imo, Smithville isnt even Top 5 of all time, a bunch of aspect of Smithville is overexaggerated and overrated

 

[GrenadinesDes]

Uhhhhhmm. Why are we now suddenly downplaying the intensity of a tornado that turned large brick structures to “dust”, launched large vehicles over half a mile, trenches the earth. Made an entire semi truck disappear along with its cargo. Embedded another semi truck, and an RV into the ground, turned low lying shrubbery into powder, along with uplifting numerous large trees and reducing them to wood chips, upheaved parts of a home’s foundation slab, and jumped from EF0 to EF5 intensity in just 6 seconds. All while moving at over 60MPH in the single most violent tornadic atmosphere in modern history?

Just curious why suddenly several people think this tornado isn’t top 3 anymore?
Idk how else to say all this so I'm sorry if it comes off wrong.

Smithville didn't go from EF0 to EF5 in 6 seconds, thats pure myth. Smithville spent the first minutes after touchdown at EF0 intensity over forested areas. The funeral home was poorly built, trenching isn't a great contextual, "Embedded another semi truck, and an RV into the ground" "upheaved parts of a home’s foundation slab," When did these occur?

 

[ColdFront]

Imo, Smithville isnt even Top 5 of all time, a bunch of aspect of Smithville is overexaggerated and overrated

Which is a complete fallacy in itself. We have zero way of measuring what is top 5 and what isn’t. Which is why I personally wish these “power rankings” would go away altogether.

I don’t ever “rank” tornados because it’s just completely subjective and unscientific. Who’s to say the 1999 Bridge Creek tornado would have done the exact same thing if you swapped it with Smithville? You can’t, it’s impossible to know. Comparing disparate events is closer to apples to fried chicken than apples to oranges in my opinion. What I do know is that Smithville was an undeniably high-end violent tornado on a day filled with them. Revisionist history be damned. This activity of trying to rank tornados is just another aspect of the sports-radio/hot take culture making its way into the WX community zeitgeist.

Same thing with saying controversial things in bad faith just to stir debate or conversation.

 

[Lake Martin EF4]

Update:

Jarrell won the #3 battle. @Central Ohio Wx made a claim that Smithville was so strong it nearly ripped itself apart - if that's the case then that's gonna result in the upward shift I mentioned. It's not going to be above Jarrell though.

Update: I have been convinced to put Smithville at #6, tied up with the 'Burgs from 07/08.

 

[slenker]

Imo, Smithville isnt even Top 5 of all time, a bunch of aspect of Smithville is overexaggerated and overrated

That’s a fine opinion to have, but I disagree with it. If you’re going to try to change people’s minds, please explain why these are over-exaggerated. The imagery from Smithville is genuinely extremely high-end, and I haven’t seen a single image of forestry damage more impressive than what occurred after the funeral home. At least, nothing that was after 1974. Tri-State 1925 probably had forestry damage to a similar degree or even more extreme than Smithville but that’s a different conversation. This is what I’m talking about:

The background of this image is genuinely so unbelievable that it’s hard to put into words. I have yet to see an image barring anything from Tri-State that is more extreme than this, and I would love to see it if it exists. There is a better and closer image of the tree damage that exists out there but it’s kind of difficult to find.

Smithville didn't go from EF0 to EF5 in 6 seconds, thats pure myth.

This particular tidbit of info has always irked me a bit but it’s hard to say that it didn’t go from EF0 to EF5 intensity extremely quickly. The 6 seconds number is probably erroneous, but you can see in damage imagery that it did go from EF0 to likely EF5 intensity definitely within 15 seconds based on this image alone:

Since it was translating at ~60 mph here and its core was roughly ~30 yards wide, for this type of damage to occur, it had to have explosively intensified within some very, very short time frame, at least 6 seconds. That’s probably where that number comes from, and considering the fact that the intensity appeared to hit a steady state after this point, it’s likely that it did reach EF5 intensity at the point of trenching. I don’t like trenching as an EF5 indicator, but considering the context of this day and how extreme of an environment it was located in, it’s very believable.

"upheaved parts of a home’s foundation slab," When did these occur?

Unfortunately I can’t find an image of the RV but I’ve seen pictures of it, there was a semi and RV that were embedded into the ground right next to the B&B it struck near the beginning of its rampage. However, I do have an image of the home that had its foundation slab upheaved, although the image doesn’t show the upheaval (pretty sure the NWS mentioned it explicitly happening, though):

IIRC this home belonged to an 86 year old Jesse Cox who was a veteran mariner in Smithville. Note the extensive grass scouring, vegetation damage, and debris granulation here, and the tornado was almost certainly not at peak intensity at this location. I don’t know the details of this home’s anchoring, I’m pretty sure it was an old home, but it’s impressive regardless.

I pulled these images off Google; the one directly above comes from Tornado Talk. Ultimately, the combination of damage Smithville has exceeds pretty much every other certified EF5 in my book. That’s not me saying I think it is the strongest, I just think it has the most comfortable spot as an EF5 based on the damage it inflicted. That alone merits very high confidence that it was a top-level tornado, even amongst the strongest ever.

 

[Grand Poo Bah]

Which is a complete fallacy in itself. We have zero way of measuring what is top 5 and what isn’t. Which is why I personally wish these “power rankings” would go away altogether.

I don’t ever “rank” tornados because it’s just completely subjective and unscientific. Who’s to say the 1999 Bridge Creek tornado would have done the exact same thing if you swapped it with Smithville? You can’t, it’s impossible to know. Comparing disparate events is closer to apples to fried chicken than apples to oranges in my opinion. What I do know is that Smithville was an undeniably high-end violent tornado on a day filled with them. Revisionist history be damned. This activity of trying to rank tornados is just another aspect of the sports-radio/hot take culture making its way into the WX community zeitgeist.

Same thing with saying controversial things in bad faith just to stir debate or conversation.

I don't mind the top 10 lists because it's a good way to conceptualize the most extreme tornadoes for the layman. A lot of the time, a top 10 list has been my reason for looking deeper into a tornado and learning more about it. It becomes silly when people start arguing about or criticizing other peoples' lists, though. Like it's not that deep. It's just for fun.

I agree with all your points a lot though. You've definitely hit the nail on the head.

 

[Lake Martin EF4]

The imagery from Smithville is genuinely extremely high-end, and I haven’t seen a single image of forestry damage more impressive than what occurred after the funeral home. At least, nothing that was after 1974.

Perhaps the most impressive FOREST damage, but not the most intense TREE damage. Bakersfield Valley probably wins the day for that one IMO - it literally scraped up and obliterated what appeared to be an entire grove of MESQUITE trees.

 

[slenker]

Perhaps the most impressive FOREST damage, but not the most intense TREE damage. Bakersfield Valley probably wins the day for that one IMO - it literally scraped up and obliterated what appeared to be an entire grove of MESQUITE trees.

This I can agree with, but IMO most impressive forest damage takes the cake in terms of violence versus most impressive single tree / more-than-one but not forest tree damage, simply because of the breadth of violence it takes to do what Smithville did.

Loyal Valley ‘99, Matador ‘23, and El Reno ‘11 are others with more impressive single tree damage than Smithville, but they never hit any full-on forests as far as I know, so it’s pretty difficult to compare them. We can make all the lists of most powerful tornadoes we want but ultimately they’re extremely subjective, so if people don’t share the same opinions on Smithville that I and many others do, that’s completely fine as well.

 

[ColdFront]

I don't mind the top 10 lists because it's a good way to conceptualize the most extreme tornadoes for the layman. A lot of the time, a top 10 list has been my reason for looking deeper into a tornado and learning more about it. It becomes silly when people start arguing about or criticizing other peoples' lists, though. Like it's not that deep. It's just for fun.

I agree with all your points a lot though. You've definitely hit the nail on the head.

All very valid points. Top 10 lists are a good way to compile that information, like you noted.

On the bolded point, this seems to specifically happen in this thread and derails a lot of very informative debate and posts.

Again, just my opinion, but top ten lists should probably reside in their own thread, or even the sig tor thread, since the rating isn’t really being debated anymore, rather it’s the spot on some list.

 

[Lake Martin EF4]

On the bolded point, this seems to specifically happen in this thread and derails a lot of very informative debate and posts.

Not just this thread. You should see the World War I inadvertently sparked off in Significant Tornado Events regarding whether Rochelle should be rated EF4 or EF5.

 

[TH2002]

Not just this thread. You should see the World War I inadvertently sparked off in Significant Tornado Events regarding whether Rochelle should be rated EF4 or EF5.

Nah, that was the Vilonia blowup (which, admittedly, I was a big part of). The Rochelle blowup is WW2.

 

[tornado examiner]

That’s a fine opinion to have, but I disagree with it. If you’re going to try to change people’s minds, please explain why these are over-exaggerated. The imagery from Smithville is genuinely extremely high-end, and I haven’t seen a single image of forestry damage more impressive than what occurred after the funeral home. At least, nothing that was after 1974. Tri-State 1925 probably had forestry damage to a similar degree or even more extreme than Smithville but that’s a different conversation. This is what I’m talking about:
View attachment 49295
The background of this image is genuinely so unbelievable that it’s hard to put into words. I have yet to see an image barring anything from Tri-State that is more extreme than this, and I would love to see it if it exists. There is a better and closer image of the tree damage that exists out there but it’s kind of difficult to find.

This particular tidbit of info has always irked me a bit but it’s hard to say that it didn’t go from EF0 to EF5 intensity extremely quickly. The 6 seconds number is probably erroneous, but you can see in damage imagery that it did go from EF0 to likely EF5 intensity definitely within 15 seconds based on this image alone:
View attachment 49294
Since it was translating at ~60 mph here and its core was roughly ~30 yards wide, for this type of damage to occur, it had to have explosively intensified within some very, very short time frame, at least 6 seconds. That’s probably where that number comes from, and considering the fact that the intensity appeared to hit a steady state after this point, it’s likely that it did reach EF5 intensity at the point of trenching. I don’t like trenching as an EF5 indicator, but considering the context of this day and how extreme of an environment it was located in, it’s very believable.

Unfortunately I can’t find an image of the RV but I’ve seen pictures of it, there was a semi and RV that were embedded into the ground right next to the B&B it struck near the beginning of its rampage. However, I do have an image of the home that had its foundation slab upheaved, although the image doesn’t show the upheaval (pretty sure the NWS mentioned it explicitly happening, though):
View attachment 49296
IIRC this home belonged to an 86 year old Jesse Cox who was a veteran mariner in Smithville. Note the extensive grass scouring, vegetation damage, and debris granulation here, and the tornado was almost certainly not at peak intensity at this location. I don’t know the details of this home’s anchoring, I’m pretty sure it was an old home, but it’s impressive regardless.

I pulled these images off Google; the one directly above comes from Tornado Talk. Ultimately, the combination of damage Smithville has exceeds pretty much every other certified EF5 in my book. That’s not me saying I think it is the strongest, I just think it has the most comfortable spot as an EF5 based on the damage it inflicted. That alone merits very high confidence that it was a top-level tornado, even amongst the strongest ever.

The RV in question.

 

[GrenadinesDes]

That’s a fine opinion to have, but I disagree with it. If you’re going to try to change people’s minds, please explain why these are over-exaggerated. The imagery from Smithville is genuinely extremely high-end, and I haven’t seen a single image of forestry damage more impressive than what occurred after the funeral home. At least, nothing that was after 1974. Tri-State 1925 probably had forestry damage to a similar degree or even more extreme than Smithville but that’s a different conversation. This is what I’m talking about:
View attachment 49295
The background of this image is genuinely so unbelievable that it’s hard to put into words. I have yet to see an image barring anything from Tri-State that is more extreme than this, and I would love to see it if it exists. There is a better and closer image of the tree damage that exists out there but it’s kind of difficult to find.

This particular tidbit of info has always irked me a bit but it’s hard to say that it didn’t go from EF0 to EF5 intensity extremely quickly. The 6 seconds number is probably erroneous, but you can see in damage imagery that it did go from EF0 to likely EF5 intensity definitely within 15 seconds based on this image alone:
View attachment 49294
Since it was translating at ~60 mph here and its core was roughly ~30 yards wide, for this type of damage to occur, it had to have explosively intensified within some very, very short time frame, at least 6 seconds. That’s probably where that number comes from, and considering the fact that the intensity appeared to hit a steady state after this point, it’s likely that it did reach EF5 intensity at the point of trenching. I don’t like trenching as an EF5 indicator, but considering the context of this day and how extreme of an environment it was located in, it’s very believable.

Unfortunately I can’t find an image of the RV but I’ve seen pictures of it, there was a semi and RV that were embedded into the ground right next to the B&B it struck near the beginning of its rampage. However, I do have an image of the home that had its foundation slab upheaved, although the image doesn’t show the upheaval (pretty sure the NWS mentioned it explicitly happening, though):
View attachment 49296
IIRC this home belonged to an 86 year old Jesse Cox who was a veteran mariner in Smithville. Note the extensive grass scouring, vegetation damage, and debris granulation here, and the tornado was almost certainly not at peak intensity at this location. I don’t know the details of this home’s anchoring, I’m pretty sure it was an old home, but it’s impressive regardless.

I pulled these images off Google; the one directly above comes from Tornado Talk. Ultimately, the combination of damage Smithville has exceeds pretty much every other certified EF5 in my book. That’s not me saying I think it is the strongest, I just think it has the most comfortable spot as an EF5 based on the damage it inflicted. That alone merits very high confidence that it was a top-level tornado, even amongst the strongest ever.

I know I said I want to get off this website for today but I forgot about this. "This particular tidbit of info has always irked me a bit but it’s hard to say that it didn’t go from EF0 to EF5 intensity extremely quickly. The 6 seconds number is probably erroneous, but you can see in damage imagery that it did go from EF0 to likely EF5 intensity definitely within 15 seconds based on this image alone:" I feel like its longer than 15 seconds since I'm pretty sure Smithville touched down before the forest, somewhere slightly east of the canal