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Severe Weather Threat 4/28-4/30

Last time someone or some peeps questioned the forecast they were wrong and the pink pencil guy was correct.
Since this is a weather forum I think its completely fine to call it how we see it/respectfully discuss the setup as long as its based on the given information. And I wasn't one of the "someones" questioning the pink pencil guy last time.

Like I said, I would love to hear why those of you who think this looks like a high risk setup think that.
 
Since this is a weather forum I think its completely fine to call it how we see it/respectfully discuss the setup as long as its based on the given information. And I wasn't one of the "someones" questioning the pink pencil guy last time.

Like I said, I would love to hear why those of you who think this looks like a high risk setup think that.
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with questioning the high-end call this far out, as long as it is discussed respectfully. It seems like a significant reason behind the MDT this far out is because of the very fast translation speed of the jet max, which tends to be good for intense discrete development - plus the parameter space is adequate for strong tornadoes based on what we're seeing now. A day 2 HIGH would be very surprising though. I haven't seen anything evident enough to come close to pulling the trigger on something like that, but I can see a possibility where day 1 comes along and they bump up to a high risk based on increasing confidence of something nasty occurring.
 
Since this is a weather forum I think its completely fine to call it how we see it/respectfully discuss the setup as long as its based on the given information. And I wasn't one of the "someones" questioning the pink pencil guy last time.

Like I said, I would love to hear why those of you who think this looks like a high risk setup think that.
I wasn't calling you out personally. I just remember that there were some people actually mentioning that they were wrong and should have given more credit to the SPC forecast.
 
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with questioning the high-end call this far out, as long as it is discussed respectfully. It seems like a significant reason behind the MDT this far out is because of the very fast translation speed of the jet max, which tends to be good for intense discrete development - plus the parameter space is adequate for strong tornadoes based on what we're seeing now. A day 2 HIGH would be very surprising though. I haven't seen anything evident enough to come close to pulling the trigger on something like that, but I can see a possibility where day 1 comes along and they bump up to a high risk based on increasing confidence of something nasty occurring.
Makes total sense. I think the speed shear verse strongly veering winds with height is keeping me skeptical for now. Im sure there have been some, but off the top of my head I can't think of an outbreak that produced just off speed shear/less strongly curved hodographs alone.

I do like the environment down along the dryline into northern Ok and Kansas and less forcing could help keep things discreet if storms do initiate.
 
So here's two alternate scenarios the RRFS is providing. Line in Minnesota with damaging straight-line winds, and discrete supercells (06z) in Iowa and in western Missouri and northern Kansas. 12z then provides a more linear storm mode with perhaps slight discrete supercellular mode.
1000002104.gif
1000002105.gif
 
So here's two alternate scenarios the RRFS is providing. Line in Minnesota with damaging straight-line winds, and discrete supercells (06z) in Iowa and in western Missouri and northern Kansas. 12z then provides a more linear storm mode with perhaps slight discrete supercellular mode.
View attachment 40390
View attachment 40391

Quick question, would the decent capping in place and strong forcing allow for at the very least a semi-discrete mode throughout the day?
 
Quick question, would the decent capping in place and strong forcing allow for at the very least a semi-discrete mode throughout the day?
Yes. Not saying this will happen, but one of the things that made Palm Sunday 1965 so violent, is the fact that the setup had decent capping in place throughout the day that made the storm mode discrete, and kept any other potential convection from developing, messing up the setup.
 
Yes. Not saying this will happen, but one of the things that made Palm Sunday 1965 so violent, is the fact that the setup had decent capping in place throughout the day that made the storm mode discrete, and kept any other potential convection from developing, messing up the setup.
Glad to hear a second opinion.

With that said, I think the decent cap would likely negate the unfavorable shear profiles near the dryline. The strong forcing might be a double-edged sword here because while usually that would allow for messy convection, the cap is decently strong which could negate that as well. Like I said before, I doubt this will be a linear setup. I am also quite concerned about the area in Kansas and northern Oklahoma, as the shear profiles are more favorable and the forcing is weaker. However, the cap there is also strong-ish, so it's more conditional. Givin the parameters, this looks like a high CAPE/decent to low shear setup. Any storms that can get going and stay at the very least semi discrete could produce strong tornadoes. Another thing about the northern mode of this setup is that Trey pointed out the models showing confluence bands from Iowa to northern Missouri, and the shear profiles in the open warm sector are more favorable, which once again leads me to believe that we will at least get semi-discrete development.

I'm not a met so take this with a grain of salt, but there is a possibility that a significant to possibly major tornado outbreak occurs.
 
What’s he thinking lol
Trey did say that the trough is within the OMEGA project threshold for tornado outbreaks to occur (40 kts minimum), with the trough at 49 kts moving through. That's probably why the SPC is so honed in on this being a potential outbreak of tornadoes despite semi-weird kinematics. He also suggested to disregard a lot of the NAM's solutions when it came to soundings because it doesn't backup the reality of the LLJ. See 42:35 in the video. Lastly, he did say that significant severe weather should be maximized in the circle where the LLJ is placed at, feeding all the moisture/kinematics needed for a potential outbreak.
1000079508.jpg
 
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Trey did say that the trough is within the OMEGA project threshold for tornado outbreaks to occur (40 kts minimum), with the trough at 49 kts moving through. That's probably why the SPC is so honed in on this being a potential outbreak of tornadoes despite semi-weird kinematics. He also suggested to disregard a lot of the NAM's solutions when it came to soundings because it doesn't backup the reality of the LLJ. See 42:35 in the video. Lastly, he did say that significant severe weather should be maximized in the circle where the LLJ is placed at, feeding all the moisture/kinematics needed for a potential outbreak.
View attachment 40393

Thanks
 
Latest D3 - 1745699028632.png
SUMMARY...
An outbreak of severe weather remains likely across portions of the
Upper Midwest, centered on Monday afternoon and evening. Very large
hail, strong tornadoes, and damaging winds are expected.

...Synopsis...
Multiple shortwave impulses embedded within a broader positive-tilt
upper trough will eject into/across the North-Central States during
the period. Primary surface cyclone, over central/eastern SD Monday
morning, will remain nearly steady-state as it tracks east-northeast
across the Upper Great Lakes.

...Upper Midwest...
Elevated convection should be ongoing at 12Z Monday, centered on ND
arcing southeast across the Upper MS Valley. Isolated severe hail
may accompany this morning activity as it progresses eastward along
the leading edge of a stout EML. Regenerative elevated storm
development should persist northeast of the surface cyclone track
across the Red River Valley through northern MN, likely limiting the
northward advancement of the surface warm front during the day.
Guidance differs markedly with the degree of northward
destabilization into northern MN, lowering confidence in the degree
of severe threat here.

South of early-period storms/cloud coverage, pronounced
destabilization will occur beneath the initially stout EML amid
strong low-level moist advection. Cooling mid-level temperatures
during the afternoon will be favorably timed with peak heating to
support thunderstorms across southern MN into northern IA. Greater
coverage is expected with northern extent which may yield more
linear organization, compared to more discrete/isolated coverage
trailing southward. A mix of all hazards is anticipated with an
increasing severe threat into the early/mid evening as the low-level
jet strengthens across the Upper MS Valley to Upper Great Lakes. The
southern portion of this will be the more favored corridor for open
warm sector discrete supercells capable of producing strong
tornadoes. By late evening, linear clusters will likely overtake
much of the discrete convection as the cold front advances rapidly
east-southeast. Damaging wind gusts and embedded tornadoes will
remain possible through the late evening and perhaps into the
overnight hours.

...KS/MO to west TX...
A strongly unstable/sheared warm sector will exist along/east of the
dryline. Forcing for ascent should be much weaker than farther north
with only weak mid-level height falls along the dryline. Most
probable storm signals are after the nocturnal low-level jet
increases during the evening in the southern Great Plains. This
could support isolated supercells into Monday night.

..Grams.. 04/26/2025
 
I think the risk for a significant tornado event remains quite high, unfortunately.

Synoptics should always be the go-to, especially at D3/4 range. And for synoptics, things are in my opinion concerning. SREF indicates a pretty clean and rapid ejection of a negatively tilted shortwave through the broader positively tilted trough.

1745704891148.png

Chris Broyles' paper suggested fast moving jet streaks such as these can generate localized areas of strong vertical motion that can aid in producing long track tornadic supercells. That's why despite capping concerns, and the fact a fair few models show little in the way of precipitation, I'm not necessarily thinking lack of storms is the likely fail mode. You'd be hard pressed to find a jet streak like this impinging right on the northern end of rich moisture and not get storms. Models often struggle with initiation this range.

On the other side of things, you could make an argument with generally SW that rapid upscale growth is favored. Yet as the dryline and any potential pre-frontal confluence curves into the surface low, the angle between them is reasonably large and would support at least a reasonably long window of semi-discrete or discrete storm mode. Especially if your CIN and mid level dry air are on the stronger side these things may strike a balance. Will have to keep an eye on CAMs though for hints on what the convective evolution may be like.

1745705360795.png

The environment remains exceptionally supportive, however, of strong, and potentially violent tornadoes, from about 20/21z onwards. Initially that will be thermodynamically driven, but kinematics become highly favorable from 22-00z onwards.

1745705786245.png

That risk obviously hinges on whether we do actually get robust supercells. My early guess now is we get at least 1-2 robust storms. Whether we see that number increase probably dictates whether we move more towards a High-Risk scenario, and depends on how the trough ejection, capping, and any boundaries influence storm initiation and mode.

The main failure mode I'm watching for now is whether the trough ejection is too fast. Obviously, having a faster trough ejection increases the severe risk, but in this case when its already very fast (40kts+), any faster and the best upper level support which would favor discrete supercells will outrun the EF3+ parameter space and things may be somewhat moderated. We've seen hints of this, particularly on the NAM, though the historical bias suggests models can be a tad fast at this range. So will need watching.

Long story short, Monday looks potentially volatile. I think D3 MDT was the right call, but we will have to see how the forecast progresses.
 
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