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Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

Grand Poo Bah said:
I respect your opinion and reservations. However, try to explain why he would create a presentation, specifically to train surveyors on the difference between EF4 and EF5 tornadoes, and choose to use Bridge Creek and Piedmont as the EF5 examples, and Goldsby as the EF4 example. There's absolutely no excuse for that. He's comparing 280 mph damage with 320 mph damage and painting it as the boundary line for 200 MPH.

His connections to Haag and consulting for insurance companies is a conflict of interest. Bar none. It's not up for debate. If you believe his character is strong enough it has no effect on him that's good, but it's a pretty good example of the naivety I'm talking about.

So is this:
"He likely makes just enough money without State Farm's help"

I don't think he's hurting for cash. This is a weird conclusion to draw with how much money there is in consulting and insurance. Haag has 100 employees and their yearly revenue is between $25-100 million.

I hope i'm not coming off too harsh. I just very strongly disagree. Thanks for the welcome! This whole thread was a fascinating read over the last week or so!
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also if im correct ... some one on twitter or reddit found i think good evidence for the whole ... not rating tornadoes EF5 cause of insurance ... from multiple official source as well ... need to find this again.
 
Grand Poo Bah said:
In reference to my previous post. I think I found the house with 18 inch anchor bolts! Note the extreme ground scouring and entirely debarked shrub in the foreground. Looks like the anchor bolts might've been pulled out of the ground and are still attached to the board? This is some of the most impressive damage you'll ever see. Tim Marshall reviewed all this damage, and made a conscious choice to rate it EF4. then used the same tornado to train surveyors on EF4 damage. I believe this warrants a full scale investigation from NOAA, and potentially even a full scale audit of everything he's touched with the NWS.


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this now reminds me of the most stupidest thing ive seen from a NWS video, where they make a presentation of the bremen tornado and talk about the whole well built house being swept clean and throwing the slab away.... after talking about this they ask the people who were watching the presentation in that room with them to rate them with a live counter .. and some how most of them rated that extreme damage as only EF2 damage..... , wish i could find this and i hope some one knows what im talking about.
 
Not sure if this is the right place, but the Matador rating was brought up during the NWA meetings today:

 
Oooh
 
JBishopwx said:
Not sure if this is the right place, but the Matador rating was brought up during the NWA meetings today:

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Interested to see what comes from this.
 
Grand Poo Bah said:
It's also worth noting Piedmont, Parkersburg, Smithville, and Moore were rated 210, 205, 205, and 210 respectively. They were all underrated so severely they'd be considered low end EF4s If the EF5 threshold was raised to where it should be. I believe Joplin has the highest rating on the EF scale of 220 MPH and that was before they tightened it up significantly.
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This is just the minimum wind speed required. Anyone with a brain knows that Smithville wasn’t 205 and Moore wasn’t 210 along with the others
 
tfxxxx said:
This is just the minimum wind speed required. Anyone with a brain knows that Smithville wasn’t 205 and Moore wasn’t 210 along with the others
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Yeah, but there are DIs that go up to 220 MPH or more. How none of the houses got the upper bound rating for damage to a home is beyond me. Once again, inexcusable.
 
One of the most damning arguments against the EF scale is the fact an International Fujita (IF) and Japanese Enhanced Fujita (JEF) scales exist. Japan has an average of (I think) 8 tornadoes a year? And they found the EF scale so inaccurate they developed their own. For 8 tornadoes a year.

America has the most tornadoes by far. Our weather institutions are the most advanced. Since 1980 there has been like $2.5 Trillion in tornado damage across the country. The scale we use to measure tornadoes should be the standard. When people use the argument "it may not be perfect, but it's the best that exists," it's wrong.
 
crosby said:
the F scale isn't more accurate overall, just in terms of windspeeds. the EF scale is better in every other way
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Can you explain your point a little deeper because this makes zero sense to me. Isn't deriving windspeeds the entire purpose? What else constitutes overall? It can't be damage because the scale doesn't measure damage. It measures construction quality.
 
JPWX said:
I say go for it! I know at least 4 people in meteorology with Autism and 3 are broadcast meteorologists.
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I am not going for meteorology but for a bachelor's degree in middle school mathematics and a minor in mathematics. I will be all mathed out. College Algebra, Trigonometry, Introduction to Statistics, Calculus I, Calculus II, Calculus Based Statistics, and Calculus III are the math classes I have taken so far. Other math classes I am taking are Linear Algebra, Elementary Mathematics, Geometry for College Students, Mathematics for Middle School Teachers, History of Mathematics, Differential Equations, Statistical Methods I, and Introduction to Probability.
 
Shakespeare 2016 said:
I am not going for meteorology but for a bachelor's degree in middle school mathematics and a minor in mathematics. I will be all mathed out. College Algebra, Trigonometry, Introduction to Statistics, Calculus I, Calculus II, Calculus Based Statistics, and Calculus III are the math classes I have taken so far. Other math classes I am taking are Linear Algebra, Elementary Mathematics, Geometry for College Students, Mathematics for Middle School Teachers, History of Mathematics, Differential Equations, Statistical Methods I, and Introduction to Probability.
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WOW! That's awesome! I wish you all the best and given that math isn't my strong suit, that is most impressive! I wasn't around people with autism a lot growing up, but for about 2 to 3 years, I worked at a local Autism Center in Tupelo. That was the most learning experience about Autism and just being around those kids made my day. The kids were so sweet and smart too. My sister and I both loved working there. Unfortunately, due to unforeseen reasons, we left.
 
JPWX said:
WOW! That's awesome! I wish you all the best and given that math isn't my strong suit, that is most impressive! I wasn't around people with autism a lot growing up, but for about 2 to 3 years, I worked at a local Autism Center in Tupelo. That was the most learning experience about Autism and just being around those kids made my day. The kids were so sweet and smart too. My sister and I both loved working there. Unfortunately, due to unforeseen reasons, we left.
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I like science to an extent but I like math more. I have taken Introduction to Chemistry, Human Anatomy, and General Nutrition. I got a solid B in Introduction to Chemistry, a low B in Human Anatomy, and a low A in General Nutrition. In all my math classes I have taken I have got low A's to solid A's. Introduction to Chemistry and Human Anatomy and they drove me insane. However I took Calculus III a few years back and it was one math that really drove me crazy. At least none of the math classes I still have left to take are easier or no harder than Calculus III.
 
Grand Poo Bah said:
Yeah, but there are DIs that go up to 220 MPH or more. How none of the houses got the upper bound rating for damage to a home is beyond me. Once again, inexcusable.
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What DI’s go up to 220? Is it something other than frame homes? It must have never have been used since the introduction of the scale.

Also, Piedmont got 210+ for the oil rig. If that DI wasn’t enough to get anything above 220 I find it insane that they would give any frame home of any construction, regardless of how slabbed it was, something above 220.

It’s really dumb, something needs to change. Clearly the oil rig required winds well in excess of 210 mph, but I won’t continue to beat the dead horse at this point.
 
Grand Poo Bah said:
Yeah, but there are DIs that go up to 220 MPH or more. How none of the houses got the upper bound rating for damage to a home is beyond me. Once again, inexcusable.
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you literally just dont understand how the EF scale works. for a home to get upper bound, it has to be extremely wellbuilt. the intensity of the tornado has nothing to do with it
 
Grand Poo Bah said:
One of the most damning arguments against the EF scale is the fact an International Fujita (IF) and Japanese Enhanced Fujita (JEF) scales exist. Japan has an average of (I think) 8 tornadoes a year? And they found the EF scale so inaccurate they developed their own. For 8 tornadoes a year.

America has the most tornadoes by far. Our weather institutions are the most advanced. Since 1980 there has been like $2.5 Trillion in tornado damage across the country. The scale we use to measure tornadoes should be the standard. When people use the argument "it may not be perfect, but it's the best that exists," it's wrong.
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JEF is extremely inaccurate, this is a non argument
 
Grand Poo Bah said:
Can you explain your point a little deeper because this makes zero sense to me. Isn't deriving windspeeds the entire purpose? What else constitutes overall? It can't be damage because the scale doesn't measure damage. It measures construction quality.
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the F scales estimation of windspeeds was more accurate. the EF scale has a much wider range of DIs, DODs, as well as better classifying construction and its relation to windspeeds/EF rating
 
slenker said:
What DI’s go up to 220? Is it something other than frame homes? It must have never have been used since the introduction of the scale.

Also, Piedmont got 210+ for the oil rig. If that DI wasn’t enough to get anything above 220 I find it insane that they would give any frame home of any construction, regardless of how slabbed it was, something above 220.

It’s really dumb, something needs to change. Clearly the oil rig required winds well in excess of 210 mph, but I won’t continue to beat the dead horse at this point.
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Cactus was a one of a kind DI, and its complex geometry and countless variables makes it impossible to make an accurate calculation on what windspeeds would be required to topple it. 210< is a fine rating for it
 
crosby said:
you literally just dont understand how the EF scale works. for a home to get upper bound, it has to be extremely wellbuilt. the intensity of the tornado has nothing to do with it
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Why aren't there any instances of said very well constructed homes getting an upper-bound DOD then? We've seen homes with bolts every two feet and specifically designed to be tornado resistant (Goldsby), homes with their interior walls bolted down (Vilonia) and homes that had all of their walls toe-nailed (Moore), and yet they only got the expected DOD or lower despite the superior construction. It brings up the question 'just how well constructed does a home have to be to receive an upper bound rating?' Does it need to be constructed with concrete and titanium or something?
 
crosby said:
you literally just dont understand how the EF scale works. for a home to get upper bound, it has to be extremely wellbuilt. the intensity of the tornado has nothing to do with it
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Oh so literally ripping the foundation out of the ground in chunks, or uprooting sections of basement wall doesn't matter then?

"the intensity of the tornado has nothing to do with it"

yeah, that's kind of the entire problem, dude.
 
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