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Political Thread (13 Viewers)


Kory

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Elizabeth Warren wants to target the NRA's stranglehold on Congress leading to "uncontrolled gun violence and death."

Cool. Now do Planned Parenthood, Warren!

Hint: from 2011-2017...Planned Parenthood has committed 2.2 million abortions.
 

Kory

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What constitutes a red flag?
The summary is the family/law enforcement can petition a court to issue a warrant seizing firearms. That person then has to prove they are fit to have their firearms reinstated to them.

I believe the criteria varies by state as to what the burden of proof is and who can file one.
 

KoD

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Hmm interesting. I feel like any mildly sane person could prove being fit to own a firearm (whatever that entails). I can't imagine a red flag policy being both effective and not intrusive, not infringing on rights, and not costing an arm & leg to facilitate. I'm sure most homicidal people would refrain from expressing their intentions to big brother.
 

Evan

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I don't know much about the movie. You asked was ARCC was talking about, so I linked it.

I do find a tinge of hypocrisy in the fact Hollywood elite rail against guns...yet use so many in their movies often riddled with violence.
No, I know. My point was that people were being critical of the movie without understanding what it's actually about. There are millions of people that now believe Hollywood created a movie that says it is morally justified to hunt Trump supporters. This kind of misinformation never gets corrected, and I think in some cases that's quite intentional.

I'm not referring to ARCC, I'm referring to the social media accounts and right-wing media outlets that pushed this narrative (like Trump on Twitter) even though basic fact-checking or casual research would've shown the movie argues the exact opposite. Again, I think that's intentional, and I believe it's all about inflaming tensions before the 2020 election with the goal of scaring Republican voters.

Angry or fearful voters are more likely to vote than voters who have normal motivations. And they're also more likely to vote for the "Conservative" candidate. This is especially true for Conservative-leaning voters because fear is much more motivating to them than a persuasive argument, and it's a core part of their pysche they cannot change.

Simply put: scare-tactics and fear-mongering work extremely well on most Conservative-leaning voters. So if you want to make sure they vote, and that their vote goes to you, scare the hell out of them and make them believe that the "other side" will harm them in some way and/or alter their life in a negative way.

This could be a fear of social/cultural change, it could be a fear of increased immigration(which is tied to social/cultural change), fear of a right being diminished or taken away (guns, free speech, etc), or fear that the other side will favor a social/cultural group you're not a member of (i.e. minorities or younger voters being given the fruits of your hard work without having to earn it, so that means things like free college, public option for healthcare, welfare benefits, and a reduction in benefits for those receiving Medicare/Social Security).

I could list more, but I think people get the gist of my point, and this isn't some half-baked theory. A lot of hard research shows this to be true, and we're talking double blind studies, brain MRIs, and long term testing.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2017/11/22/at-yale-we-conducted-an-experiment-to-turn-conservatives-into-liberals-the-results-say-a-lot-about-our-political-divisions/?outputType=amp

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201612/fear-and-anxiety-drive-conservatives-political-attitudes?amp&ved=2ahUKEwio06C94f3jAhUQeKwKHb9cBpsQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0N4B4eOqLl7C9ZW0S_6-8F&ampcf=1

No one should take this as a criticism of Conservatives - I'm one myself. There are many positives that come from being more attuned to potential threats, or being cautious about rapidly changing the order and structure of society. I could easily lay out several paragraphs of positives that come from being inclined to Conservatism (protecting the unborn, for instance), but that's beyond the scope of my response here. Likewise, I could lay out a number of very negative things associated with having a perspective dominated by Liberal thought -- Liberals are less able to understand competing political/social views, and over-focus on equitable outcomes instead of equitable opportunities in life. Again, that's the beyond the scope of my response.

The Conservative tendency to be more responsive to threats or fears is something I've experienced personally for as long as I can remember. I've always been a very risk averse person and have never been a big fan of change -- especially rapid change. Thankfully, I'm able to balance that against rationally weighing evidence and outcomes, so fear generally doesn't influence me that much as an adult unless it involves my children.

With all of that said, my overall point is that preying on the inherent sensitivity of Conservatives to fear and change is exactly how Trump got elected. It's why from the get-go he focused on immigration and hot-button social issues. It's why he's always played up things like kneeling for the flag, political correctness, a whole host of other things. He focuses on these divisive issues and highlights the extremes of the Democratic party because that's what is most motivating to his base. Misinformation is Trump's friend. Who cares what the moral of the movie actually is if you can convince most of your base it's a story about hunting people just like them? Especially since they're already immensely skeptical and critical of "Hollywood" as a societal influence.

I was questioning ARCC about what he was referring to because I wanted to understand why he felt the movie was "dumb" and I wanted to make sure we were talking about the same movie. If anything, the movie was a smart critique of our current societal divisions, and it is meant to show that Conservatives and Trump supporters are just as human as Democrats or liberals. What's sad is that positive message will be totally ignored in favor of Trump's fear-mongering. It's not the first time he's been able to persuade broad segments of our society through misinformation -- one only need to look at polling data to see the major shifts that have occurred among Republican voters on a number of topics that Trump has propagandized about.
 

Evan

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Perfect example of what I'm talking about in my post above. While I'm extremely skeptical of proposed "Red Flag laws" (we already have a number of similar laws on the books, and the issue is enforcement not a lack of legal authority) no laws are being proposed that would allow random people to call Big Brother tiplines and have someone's guns seized. But these kinds of Facebook posts are exactly the type that get thousands or millions of shares because they appeal to a group already fearful of the government, and provide confirmation bias of what they already suspect.
 

Evan

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Hmm interesting. I feel like any mildly sane person could prove being fit to own a firearm (whatever that entails). I can't imagine a red flag policy being both effective and not intrusive, not infringing on rights, and not costing an arm & leg to facilitate. I'm sure most homicidal people would refrain from expressing their intentions to big brother.
Well, that's the thing. We already have laws that allow law enforcement or family members to do much of what "Red Flag laws" are intended to do. Historically, the issue has been one of enforcement because of a lack of resources, lack of concern by law enforcement (or a misunderstanding of what legal authority they already have), or the simple fact that a lot of people do NOT share their suicidal or homicidal thoughts with anyone.

There was legislation introduced in 2018 to create a federal "Red Flag law" and various states have either passed similar legislation or have had similar proposals in their legislature. Currently, the GOP seems to be wanting federal legislation that would provide some kind of grant or assistance to help states pass and implement their own "Red Flag laws."

Gun owners have a number of concerns about these types of laws: due process, inability to have firearms/ammunition returned after a temporary seizure (the government has a history of losing or "misplacing" things -- especially firearms or valuable items), and what is the standard for evidence admissible to a proceeding and what is the overall burden of proof required to obtain a "risk protection order" from a court. There are other concerns as well, and a lot of those depend on what a particular law or legislation says and how expansive it is.
 

Matt

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Perfect example of what I'm talking about in my post above. While I'm extremely skeptical of proposed "Red Flag laws" (we already have a number of similar laws on the books, and the issue is enforcement not a lack of legal authority) no laws are being proposed that would allow random people to call Big Brother tiplines and have someone's guns seized. But these kinds of Facebook posts are exactly the type that get thousands or millions of shares because they appeal to a group already fearful of the government, and provide confirmation bias of what they already suspect.
How would veterans who have deployed to combat zones multiple times be handled. PTSD is common. They get mental heath treatment. I'm afraid that would be used against them. How about law enforcement ? My son is a police officer that in two years has had to discharge his weapon twice. One resulting in the life of a black man. He handled it very well but not all do. I just think it's a slippery slope. Most of this mass shooting there are many and obvious clues.
 
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Kory

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I think red flag laws will cause people to forego treatment of other conditions. You have GAD and would like to take therapy sessions? Would that be used against you? What about marriage counseling? They might suspect an abusive relationship is occurring.

I'm sure people think of these things, but do we have solutions for them?
 

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