Archive 2017-2019 Political Thread

[gangstonc]

He lies about everything.

 

[Kory]

Look no further than the national media on an explicit case of fake news just this past week. They aren't interested in reporting the truth. They want sensationalism. And this proves true in politics as well. It's hard for me to trust the media's reporting on other things if this is how they covered Hurricane Barry.

https://www.bayoubrief.com/2019/07/...cvAG7CIeJAEKroHu_yekCqFXBbl9wq0D3jm0nhBxM_rck

 

[Kory]

Such a nice, compassionate gentleman!

 

[Kory]

Add in the New York Times and their habit of jumping the gun/inaccurate reporting this time on Barry. They ran a story overnight about Louisiana escaping the worst. Yep! People are getting pulled from rooftops and rivers breaking record crests in Southwest and Central Louisiana. Quite predicted. But hey, we’re supposed to trust the media with accurate reporting? As someone who has family spread across Louisiana, the national media has been a disaster when reporting Hurricane Barry.

 

[gangstonc]

 

[gangstonc]

 

[Evan]

People come up to famous people all the time and have their picture taken. So what? I bet you every dollar I have Conway doesn't even know the guy.

 

[Kory]

I’m glad Trump’s mean tweets are gaining headlines. Don’t mind a radicalized Antifa member who tried to murder law enforcement using a rifle and “incendiary devices.” Where is the media on this? Where is the lecture about “weapons of war?” Are ARs in the hands of bad people only a problem if the Left deems it to be?

 

[Kory]

Why is it that Ocasio Cortez can outright equate "white men" with misogyny (that word as lost all meaning thanks to Leftists) and physical abuse and no one bats an eye? Why are our politicians of different parties held to a different standard? Why is Ocasio Cortez allowed to suggest white men are inherently evil but Trump never mentions (he does imply) race and its the end of the world?

 

[Evan]

Why is it that Ocasio Cortez can outright equate "white men" with misogyny (that word as lost all meaning thanks to Leftists) and physical abuse and no one bats an eye? Why are our politicians of different parties held to a different standard? Why is Ocasio Cortez allowed to suggest white men are inherently evil but Trump never mentions (he does imply) race and its the end of the world?

Are you being serious? You don't understand the difference between simply mentioning race and pure xenophobic bile?

 

[Kory]

Are you being serious? You don't understand the difference between simply mentioning race and pure xenophobic bile?

Both are racist statements. You aren’t gonna convince me otherwise.

 

[Evan]

I’m glad Trump’s mean tweets are gaining headlines. Don’t mind a radicalized Antifa member who tried to murder law enforcement using a rifle and “incendiary devices.” Where is the media on this? Where is the lecture about “weapons of war?” Are ARs in the hands of bad people only a problem if the Left deems it to be?

I think you should probably realize that what's important to YOU doesn't mean it's of national importance. Invariably, a targeted Presidential attack against members of Congress, demanding that they leave the country and "go home" is national news. A domestic political radical attacking a government facility may or may not be national news, and it may or may not be covered heavily depending upon the news of the day and other factors.

I definitely saw all the usual major news outlets post headlines and stories about the attack on the ICE facility. Maybe it would've been a bigger story if our mentally vacuous President didn't spend the previous day repeatedly tripping over his own feet.

It's like wondering why the primaries were covered more in early 2016 than the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge occupation. One was a truly national story, and the other was a regional story that made national headlines. There's a difference.

 

[gangstonc]

People come up to famous people all the time and have their picture taken. So what? I bet you every dollar I have Conway doesn't even know the guy.

It’s just a fun little exercise.

 

[Evan]

Both are racist statements. You aren’t gonna convince me otherwise.

You're dodging the question. Do you understand the difference between simply mentioning race and targeted xenophobic bile? If you don't understand the difference, then a "no" will suffice.

That's not to say that I find Cortez's tweet to be entirely appropriate. It was vague, difficult to follow, and illogical. She hinted at language that seeks to consolidate people as one monolithic culture or stereotype based off of an immutable characteristics, and that was likely her intent.

That said, race is an acceptable identifier. We still break down our census, surveys, political polling, and much more on the basis of immutable characteristics like gender, race, age, etc. Why do you think that is? Could it be that someone's gender, age, and race might play a role in determining how they might think about something? Or potentially provide some information how they might view an issue or argument?

There's a huge difference in saying white people have a higher household income than blacks and hispanics, contrasted with saying whites have a higher household income than blacks and hispanics because of some racial trope. It's similar to pointing out that your average white is going to be more likely to listen to country music than your average black/hispanic. But, what about if we're talking about a white female resident of Seattle versus a young black male that lives in rural Alabama? Immutable characteristics may provide us with generic information that correlates to group as a whole, but they don't provide us specific information about individuals.

Cortez's comment was specifically about New York politics having a misogyny problem that has caused "far-reaching consequences." She believes one of those consequences is that all the top leaders are all "powerful white men." She's using race as an identifier while hinting at a stereotype.

Trump didn't hint at anything. He didn't just identify someone's race or ethnicity as part of a broader argument. The entire focus of his comments were on his inaccurate assumption that the four Congreswomen are foreigners not from America. He was making it clear that he doesn't believe those four Congreswomen are American because they're of a different race or ethnicity than his own, and they don't agree with him politically.

I don't like what Cortez said or how she said it, but it is incomparable to Trump's recent tweets. If you wanted an adequate comparison you'd need to look at what Ilhan Omar has said about Jews. Even then, I'm not sure what your point is. Seems to simply be more Whataboutism.

Person: Wow, Trump's tweets yesterday were incredibly racist, and harmful to many people.

Kory: But whatabout when (insert Democrat) said X?

 

[Kory]

You're dodging the question. Do you understand the difference between simply mentioning race and targeted xenophobic bile? If you don't understand the difference, then a "no" will suffice.

That's not to say that I find Cortez's tweet to be entirely appropriate. It was vague, difficult to follow, and illogical. She hinted at language that seeks to consolidate people as one monolithic culture or stereotype based off of an immutable characteristics, and that was likely her intent.

That said, race is an acceptable identifier. We still break down our census, surveys, political polling, and much more on the basis of immutable characteristics like gender, race, age, etc. Why do you think that is? Could it be that someone's gender, age, and race might play a role in determining how they might think about something? Or potentially provide some information how they might view an issue or argument?

There's a huge difference in saying white people have a higher household income than blacks and hispanics, contrasted with saying whites have a higher household income than blacks and hispanics because of some racial trope. It's similar to pointing out that your average white is going to be more likely to listen to country music than your average black/hispanic. But, what about if we're talking about a white female resident of Seattle versus a young black male that lives in rural Alabama? Immutable characteristics may provide us with generic information that correlates to group as a whole, but they don't provide us specific information about individuals.

Cortez's comment was specifically about New York politics having a misogyny problem that has caused "far-reaching consequences." She believes one of those consequences is that all the top leaders are all "powerful white men." She's using race as an identifier while hinting at a stereotype.

Trump didn't hint at anything. He didn't just identify someone's race or ethnicity as part of a broader argument. The entire focus of his comments were on his inaccurate assumption that the four Congreswomen are foreigners not from America. He was making it clear that he doesn't believe those four Congreswomen are American because they're of a different race or ethnicity than his own, and they don't agree with him politically.

I don't like what Cortez said or how she said it, but it is incomparable to Trump's recent tweets. If you wanted an adequate comparison you'd need to look at what Ilhan Omar has said about Jews. Even then, I'm not sure what your point is. Seems to simply be more Whataboutism.

Person: Wow, Trump's tweets yesterday were incredibly racist, and harmful to many people.

Kory: But whatabout when (insert Democrat) said X?

You missed the part where I said “I’m glad Trump’s mean tweets are gaining headlines.” That wasn’t tongue in cheek, sorry you couldn’t understand that.

Also, I have called out Omar’s comments about Jews. Months ago. You can go back and find them. I was then attacked by another member on here who had a total of 25 posts when I did as was Arcadia. Gangstonc has posted about Trump’s tweets. I followed up with other members of Congress divisive comments. Should we all comment on it and condemn it (I don’t think anyone agrees with his tweets), resulting in an echo chamber? No one here was brushing off Trump’s comments (I wasn’t), hence why I said “I am glad Trump’s tweets are gaining national attention.”

I want people who lead this country to be uniting. Targeting people because of race and nationality are wrong. Blaming white men in power for misogyny/abuse does NOTHING to fix said problem. Are other races in positions of power never commit acts of such? Telling people who are different races that disagree politically to “go back where they came from” does NOTHING to fix whatever problem. My point being, you can’t make race an issue of one thing and then act offended when someone else does it. Both are wrong. Both have accomplished nothing. Both have actually made relations between Americans worse.

I think you know where I stand on Trump. It’s pretty freakin obvious from the posts I have made. I’ve made posts in the past about Trump surround himself with anti-Catholic folks (Robert Jeffress). He has a habit of that. The posts are there if you wanna go digging. But to accuse me of deflecting Trump’s racist comments, when I have vocally condemned stuff he’s done in the past, is uncalled for.

 

[Evan]

Both are racist statements. You aren’t gonna convince me otherwise.

I'd also point out, Kory, that you don't have any personal familiarity with the byproducts of, or the precursors to, Trump's racial ramblings.

No one has ever told your wife to go back home because she has an accent or looks different (like the guy who wrote "NO TIP, SEE BACK" on a restaurant receipt, when my wife was a server more than a decade ago. The back of the receipt said : "YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN MY COUNTRY. GET OUT AND GO HOME."

My wife did absolutely nothing to set this guy off other than having an accent.

And it hasn't been confined to my wife, Kory. My CHILDREN have had similar things said to them before -- including one little boy on a field trip who made a similar comment to my daughter "because Trump said he's going to get rid of all of the foreigners." I was on that field trip as a chaperone and heard what the little boy said to my daughter directly.

You think Trump's comments are the same as Cortez's because it's all abstract to you. You haven't personally experienced this kind of xenophobia and racism, nor witnessed how Trump's rhetoric can even trickle down to first-graders.

I know you're a good guy, Kory, so that's why I'm trying to explain to you that abstract theory is WHOLLY different from the real world. Trump's bile and heated rhetoric have caused significant harm to a number of immigrants, people of foreign origin, or even those with just darker skin color.

I've also experienced some of this myself. Like the stares when I speak Spanish to my children. People will just OPEN-EYE gawk at you. Many with a hostile look on their face. Then they hear me speak perfect English to a cashier, or someone else, and suddenly they're smiling again. I get a reaction even though I'm American and speak English. Trump has normalized bigotry and racism. He's made it OK to be a racist asshole again.

I've had this discussion with a number of Hispanic friends and even a few black neighbors. We've all seen the uptick in racial hostility since Trump was elected. He constantly fuels and stokes the fire. Don't tell me it's the same thing. It's not. At all. I wish you could experience it for a day so you'd see.

 

[Kory]

I'd also point out, Kory, that you don't have any personal familiarity with the byproducts of, or the precursors to, Trump's racial ramblings.

No one has ever told your wife to go back home because she has an accent or looks different (like the guy who wrote "NO TIP, SEE BACK" on a restaurant receipt, when my wife was a server more than a decade ago. The back of the receipt said : "YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN MY COUNTRY. GET OUT AND GO HOME."

My wife did absolutely nothing to set this guy off other than having an accent.

And it hasn't been confined to my wife, Kory. My CHILDREN have had similar things said to them before -- including one little boy on a field trip who made a similar comment to my daughter "because Trump said he's going to get rid of all of the foreigners." I was on that field trip as a chaperone and heard what the little boy said to my daughter directly.

You think Trump's comments are the same as Cortez's because it's all abstract to you. You haven't personally experienced this kind of xenophobia and racism, nor witnessed how Trump's rhetoric can even trickle down to first-graders.

I know you're a good guy, Kory, so that's why I'm trying to explain to you that abstract theory is WHOLLY different from the real world. Trump's bile and heated rhetoric have caused significant harm to a number of immigrants, people of foreign origin, or even those with just darker skin color.

I've also experienced some of this myself. Like the stares when I speak Spanish to my children. People will just OPEN-EYE gawk at you. Many with a hostile look on their face. Then they hear me speak perfect English to a cashier, or someone else, and suddenly they're smiling again. I get a reaction even though I'm American and speak English. Trump has normalized bigotry and racism. He's made it OK to be a racist asshole again.

I've had this discussion with a number of Hispanic friends and even a few black neighbors. We've all seen the uptick in racial hostility since Trump was elected. He constantly fuels and stokes the fire. Don't tell me it's the same thing. It's not. At all. I wish you could experience it for a day so you'd see.

I think we’re 100% on the same page here. Statistics have shown what you’ve stated...increase of hate groups in the past few years. I’m not sure why identity politics has taken a hold. We do have a president who said we have good people on both sides when referring to a white nationalist march.

I think Trump’s comments have made bigoted people more emboldened. I don’t see a society where they will ever go away but messages of unity from ALL elected officials would certainly help.

 

[Evan]

You missed the part where I said “I’m glad Trump’s mean tweets are gaining headlines.” That wasn’t tongue in cheek, sorry you couldn’t understand that.

Also, I have called out Omar’s comments about Jews. Months ago. You can go back and find them. I was then attacked by another member on here who had a total of 25 posts when I did as was Arcadia. Gangstonc has posted about Trump’s tweets. I followed up with other members of Congress divisive comments. Should we all comment on it and condemn it (I don’t think anyone agrees with his tweets), resulting in an echo chamber? No one here was brushing off Trump’s comments (I wasn’t), hence why I said “I am glad Trump’s tweets are gaining national attention.”

I want people who lead this country to be uniting. Targeting people because of race and nationality are wrong. Blaming white men in power for misogyny/abuse does NOTHING to fix said problem. Are other races in positions of power never commit acts of such? Telling people who are different races that disagree politically to “go back where they came from” does NOTHING to fix whatever problem. My point being, you can’t make race an issue of one thing and then act offended when someone else does it. Both are wrong. Both have accomplished nothing. Both have actually made relations between Americans worse.

I think you know where I stand on Trump. It’s pretty freakin obvious from the posts I have made. I’ve made posts in the past about Trump surround himself with anti-Catholic folks (Robert Jeffress). He has a habit of that. The posts are there if you wanna go digging. But to accuse me of deflecting Trump’s racist comments, when I have vocally condemned stuff he’s done in the past, is uncalled for.

Whether it's your intent or not, that's the outcome when you pull a whatabout. Especially when the two things being compared are not remotely similar.

I wrote a follow-up to you to try to help you understand why what you see as just an abstract comparison simply cannot be compared in that fashion. Even definitionally, Trump's racist tweets and Ocasio's ignorant pandering are two wholly different things. They're not comparable. They're just not. Trump was targeting people on the basis of where they are from/what color they are. He knows that will further inflame racial tensions and sick his cult-like supporters on them and others like them (meaning anyone foreign or dark).

Cortez's tweet was an implied stereotype. It was vapid, lazy, and immature. But it's simply not the same thing definitionally or in actual practice as what Trump said and did. If you could personally experience the byproducts of his rhetoric you'd sing a different tune.

 

[Evan]

I think we’re 100% on the same page here. Statistics have shown what you’ve stated...increase of hate groups in the past few years. I’m not sure why identity politics has taken a hold. We do have a president who said we have good people on both sides when referring to a white nationalist march.

I think Trump’s comments have made bigoted people more emboldened. I don’t see a society where they will ever go away but messages of unity from ALL elected officials would certainly help.

Fair enough. We do agree, I just don't find what Trump said as President to be on the same level as a young 1st term House Rep. Especially when Cortez didn't say the quiet part our loud, yet he did without reservations.

I think her comments were a couple of levels below racism while Trump went full Leroy Jenkins.

 

[Matt]

VDH makes some good points and asks some good questions.


https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/06/fbi-tragedy-elites-above-law/