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Archive 2017-2019 Political Thread

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ARCC

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Playing devil's advocate here, what if what we saw Monday was nothing but a manifestation of Trump's personality: one driven by an incredible ego. This explanation makes sense when he praises authoritarian figures such as Putin, Jingpin, and Kim. Let's view this in a world where there was absolutely no collusion with the administration, do you see the summit going any differently? I don't. I still see Trump praising and admiring Putin because of his leadership style (one that has no place in America). Remember the joke, "President for life. We should give that a shot someday."

When it comes to anything Russia related, it seems he takes it as an attack on the legitimacy of his presidency. And due to his ego, he can do nothing but air his grievances whether it throws the country or the people HE selected under the bus. It seems now, Russia meddling in American politics is clearer than ever. But I have a feeling this wasn't the first election done so....by a long shot.

I think it's much more of his way he that he has learned to run his business over the years. If the person appears weak to him, he bullys them. If they are stronger personality wise and he can't bully them, he butt kisses them until he believes he can bully them.

I think he truly believes that running a nation is the same as running a business. I wouldn't doubt that in his mind, that he believes he has Putin fooled.
 

Evan

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Had Trump admitted that Russia meddled, the headline would be "Trumps Admits Collusion"! " Election Results Altered"! He was not going to give them what they wanted. Did you see the 12 indictments handed down Friday ? No collusion mentioned and the Deputy AG stated that no Americans were willingly involved and no election results were altered. He also said the 12 were presumed to be innocent. There will never be a trial. Done deal.

Also, the IC has been trying to undermine Trump from the beginning of his campaign to this very day. Not sure I trust them much anymore either!

1. Actually, there are multiple parts of the indictment that imply or characterize behaviors as being conspiratorial or colluding.

2. False. Rosenstein didn't say anything of the kind. He spoke only about that particular indictment and was very careful to parse his statement as IN THIS indictment. If he had wanted to make a more blanket statement he would've done so. He wouldn't have caveated it.

Here are his direct quotes:

There’s no allegation in this indictment that the Americans knew they were corresponding with Russian intelligence officers.

There’s no allegation in this indictment that any American citizen committed a crime.

3. Your buying into the conspiracy that Mueller's indictment of Concord Management has fallen apart because the attorneys representing Concord moved for discovery. This is a very popular conspiracy theory on the far-right (especially among hardcore Trump supporters), but falls apart with even a modicum of casual research or familiarity with Federal prosecutions. Most importantly, claims that Mueller was unprepared or backed himself into a corner were clearly proven to be false when Judge Friedrich denied Concord's request for full discovery (offering them only limited materials) and denied their request to share ANY material with Prigozhin. Essentially, Mueller's team won every argument on the merits before a Trump-appointed Federal Judge.

One additional aside: the argument that you are parroting (that the 12 will never go to trial with a nod toward the Concord Management case) is propaganda directly from the Kremlin. Putin himself made those identical arguments in Helsinki. It is rather ironic, too, considering one of the main places pushing the theory is The American Spectator. You're pretty familiar with them as you've posted several OPINION pieces from their site recently.

How does it feel to repeat propaganda directly from the Kremlin? You know what might prevent the 12 GRU agents from being tried? The fact that Russia doesn't cooperate with criminal warrants from other countries (especially the USA), and actually abuses the Interpol system to harass Kremlin critics (Bill Browder is but one example).

Fact is, Matt, there's actually zero doubt that the GRU conducted the DNC/DCCC hacks and also attempted to hack the Clinton campaign (wasn't successful because ironically Hillary had a good IT security team) along with county and state election sites. The information contained in the indictment is damning. It quotes specific people, dates, facts, places, along with internal communications, computer logs, emails, chat messages, ISP history, etc. They even tracked down the bitcoin trail back to the GRU agents and deanonymized their transactions.

There's no doubt here. Russia interfered with our election and with our democracy. But our President doesn't care, buys Putin's propaganda, and continues to score points for our enemies.

On Barack Obama's worst day he didn't score as many points for our enemies as Trump did in 5 minutes at Helsinki.

America first? Please. It's always been Trump first, Trump second, and Trump third. You know this, but you have to maintain the delusion out of necessity at this point.
 

Evan

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Playing devil's advocate here, what if what we saw Monday was nothing but a manifestation of Trump's personality: one driven by an incredible ego. This explanation makes sense when he praises authoritarian figures such as Putin, Jingpin, and Kim. Let's view this in a world where there was absolutely no collusion with the administration, do you see the summit going any differently? I don't. I still see Trump praising and admiring Putin because of his leadership style (one that has no place in America). Remember the joke, "President for life. We should give that a shot someday."

When it comes to anything Russia related, it seems he takes it as an attack on the legitimacy of his presidency. And due to his ego, he can do nothing but air his grievances whether it throws the country or the people HE selected under the bus. It seems now, Russia meddling in American politics is clearer than ever. But I have a feeling this wasn't the first election done so....by a long shot.

That's the argument that the White House has attempted to sell. But there's one major flaw...even before we had any knowledge or public report about Russia trying to influence the election, Trump was praising Putin and whitewashing Russia's history of evil. There's only one country and leader he has never attacked (dating back to before he even announced his campaign) and that is Putin and Russia.

If it is solely about his ego and respect for authoritarians then why has he previously attacked and insulted Kim and Xi Jinping? Why has Russia and Putin been the only ones he has steadfastly refused to critisize. His "walkback" yesterday was an absolute joke. Any Republican saying that made a difference or they trust his words is flat-out LYING.

No defense or theory about Trump's actions has ever been able to explain his longstanding praise of Russia and Putin. Particularly since he always tries to attack the USA for "similar" behavior while countering any criticism of Putin that he is forced to respond to. It is something more than ego as much as I wish that was the only issue.
 

Evan

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See, this is why the "it is because of his ego" argument doesn't make sense when you contrast it with Trump's own actions and rhetoric:



Why in God's name would he or the White House even seriously discuss this? Especially in light of Trump refusing to request that the GRU agents be handed over -- something ANY POTUS before Trump would've requested as part of ANY meeting with the Russian government. McFaul, Browder, etc have nothing to do with the election. This is just Trump putting Putin's requests and claims above that of our system of democracy and justice. If Browder or McFaul had done anything to warrant a criminal investigation, DOJ and the FBI would have already started one and you can bet that the Trump admin would've leaked it.

Trump continues to do EVERYTHING possible, and I mean EVERYTHING to make it appear that Putin has something on him or he's got some kind of mental disorder that manifests itself by doing exactly what the Kremlin wants.

One last area of spin I'd like to address: the idea that Trump has been tougher on Russia than anyone else. It is demonstrably false. He fought the 98-2 sanctions, refused to implement them, and all tough measures against Russia have been made by members of his admin that have either done so with their own authority, or by presenting Trump with a fait accompli in which he has no other choice lest people start resigning or leaking. Which brings me to my final point: why haven't we seen resignations due to Trump's recent behavior? Yes, I get it that some people feel it is their duty to stay in place and protect the country against Trump's haphazard and chaotic decison-making. But, isn't there a point where good people say that I can't stay quiet and let this man destroy critical alliances and beliefs simply because I think I'm preventing him from doing some other potential bad thing?
 

Evan

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I'm still trying to catch up here on all the developments over the past few weeks. Something that makes me extremely angry is Trump's questioning of NATO and Article 5 of the NATO treaty. Since 2001, almost 1000 men and women from NATO countries have died in Afghanistan fulfilling their obligations under Article 5. When our country was attacked and thousands of innocent Americans died, NATO members stood tall and fought with us in a place where few countries have ever had anything even resembling success. They knew the history of Afghanistan, they stood with America, and they sent their own people to their death. The NATO alliance is a lot more than just a treaty or a piece of paper. It is about a culture, it is about democracy, it is about what is right and good in this world.

Donald Trump is a despicable human being. His attacks on NATO and inexplicable embrace of Russia are just one of many pieces of evidence that demonstrate he has no place in American politics. He certainly has no place in the White House. He's a disgrace.
 

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Kory

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Pretty big news regarding 2nd amendment rights out of California. A 9th circuit judge upheld an injunction on a high capacity magazine ban saying "it violated the 2nd amendment and due process." A ruling is coming soon, but regardless, it will be appealed and sent to the Supreme Court which will likely have seated Kavanaugh by then. SCOTUS will likely have a similar ruling as the 9th circuit ruling the ban unconstitutional.

Slowly, but surely, these bans are getting chipped away.
 

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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/18/world/europe/trump-intelligence-russian-election-meddling-.html

Two weeks before his inauguration, Donald J. Trump was shown highly classified intelligence indicating that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia had personally ordered complex cyberattacks to sway the 2016 American election.

The evidence included texts and emails from Russian military officers and information gleaned from a top-secret source close to Mr. Putin, who had described to the C.I.A. how the Kremlin decided to execute its campaign of hacking and disinformation.

Mr. Trump sounded grudgingly convinced, according to several people who attended the intelligence briefing. But ever since, Mr. Trump has tried to cloud the very clear findings that he received on Jan. 6, 2017, which his own intelligence leaders have unanimously endorsed.
 

KoD

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Well said. One reason I'm for government spending tax dollars on social support programs. One might say it's a waste of our tax dollars & inefficiency of the programs makes it pointless, but it'll come back to bite us if we don't invest in the poor in a way that helps them be more productive and healthy members of society. You can't just ignore the problem, or else our tax dollars go to paying their outrageous medical bills down the road. Not to mention crime.. There's no magic bullet to fix everyone's problems but I wish we did more to get things right. Every family that grows up in a bad neighborhood, hungry, poor diet, drugs or with a poor education will be much harder and more expensive to deal with later on.
We can't just throw money at the issue either. There needs to be more comprehensive approaches to lead to better outcomes. Seems like that's too complicated for the government to tackle. Instead we're led to believe that one side wants to give out money and the other side wants to let the poor suffer & assume they'll change their lives if they don't get those handouts. Neither would work, but that's not the only choice we have.
 
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Mike S

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KoD

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Evan

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If Trump misbehaves (infidelity) while in office I expect he would be held accountable.

Matt,

Do you believe serial cheaters suddenly change? We're about to get even more evidence of Trump's past affairs, and that started today with one of Cohen's tapes. Believing that he suddenly stopped cheating on his wife after the election is incredibly naive. Did Bill Clinton stop? Cheaters cheat. It's what they do.
 

ARCC

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Well said. One reason I'm for government spending tax dollars on social support programs. One might say it's a waste of our tax dollars & inefficiency of the programs makes it pointless, but it'll come back to bite us if we don't invest in the poor in a way that helps them be more productive and healthy members of society. You can't just ignore the problem, or else our tax dollars go to paying their outrageous medical bills down the road. Not to mention crime.. There's no magic bullet to fix everyone's problems but I wish we did more to get things right. Every family that grows up in a bad neighborhood, hungry, poor diet, drugs or with a poor education will be much harder and more expensive to deal with later on.
We can't just throw money at the issue either. There needs to be more comprehensive approaches to lead to better outcomes. Seems like that's too complicated for the government to tackle. Instead we're led to believe that one side wants to give out money and the other side wants to let the poor suffer & assume they'll change their lives if they don't get those handouts. Neither would work, but that's not the only choice we have.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but his tweet leaves out the obvious issue, if a root canal that took an hour didn't cost $1000 more people could afford it and would get it without the need for government assistance. An hour or so appointment at Childrens for my daughter's asthma charged my insurance $750 when all they did was an xray and wrote a few prescriptions for two inhalers that cost $350 out of pocket. The problem with people and our government is they just want to band aid things. I can't really gripe at doctors or dentists because they spend 8-12 years of their life in study along with massive student loans. The down the line you have universities charging obscene amounts to go to school making the need for massive student loans. Then in all of these you have the lobbyists who funnel the money into the hands of lawmakers who continue the bandaid to get the money and votes.

Sadly no solution exists.
 
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KoD

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Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but his tweet leaves out the obvious issue, if a root canal that took an hour didn't cost $1000 more people could afford it and would get it without the need for government assistance. An hour or so appointment at Childrens for my daughter's asthma charged my insurance $750 when all they did was an xray and wrote a few prescriptions for two inhalers that cost $350 out of pocket. The problem with people and our government is they just want to band aid things. I can't really gripe at doctors or dentists because they spend 8-12 years of their life in study along with massive student loans. The down the line you have universities charging obscene amounts to go to school making the need for massive student loans. Then in all of these you have the lobbyists who funnel the money into the hands of lawmakers who continue the bandaid to get the money and votes.

Sadly no solution exists.
Indeed, it would be great start to tackle the reasons medical expenses in the US are so outrageous. $170 for a styrofoam cervical collar, $90 for one litre of sterilized salt water, etc...
 

Kory

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Bernie's utopia is killing its own citizens...of course after de-arming them under the guise to reduce crime.

Pretty crazy that a communist/totalitarian government would turn on its own people. It's like this hasn't happened a dozen times before.

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KoD

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Looks like another shooting is making headlines, happened in Toronto. I think I'll pass on listening to the police/EMS dispatch scanners on this one.
 

Kory

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Looks like another shooting is making headlines, happened in Toronto. I think I'll pass on listening to the police/EMS dispatch scanners on this one.
They should be able to quickly find where/who purchased this gun since all gun purchases and transfers are REQUIRED by law to be registered with the government. Unless, that is, registration of firearms isn't a deterrent to illegal transfer and acquisition of a gun.

Pretty ironic the mayor said "not to rush to judgement" on the motives/causes of this shooting. But in the same breath, went on to imply "too many guns in circulation" likely lead to this.
 
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