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Archive 2017-2019 Political Thread

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KoD

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This was policy well before trump.
Not only is that incorrect, but I can easily imagine the scathing post you would have if this was Obama's white house. I guess since it's Trump... Meh, right?
 

Evan

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This was policy well before trump.

No it wasn't. USAO's had administrative discretion on 8 USC § 1325 (a) charging in their individual districts, and very rarely separated families due to a 8 USC § 1325 (a).

You didn't know this (to be frank, you wouldn't care if you did know it) because you are just regurgitating false talking points and have no actual experience as it pertains to the issue. I'm not trying to be rude, but it is exasperating that people think posting talking points is a substitute for knowledge.

Secondly, Barack Obama is no longer President. Whataboutism is a lazy way to avoid taking addressing the errors and mistakes of policies that you can't otherwise defend.
 

Evan

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But the use of separation for all potentially illegal crossings was not policy until Trump made it so. Obama did it for unaccompanied minors.

Obama was sued in RILR v. Johnson for actually detaining asylee families together instead of releasing them, but Matt won't mention that because Fox News, Breitbart, and the Daily Caller know their sheep don't stray far from the shephard.

It's actually a hilarious argument: Well, Obama detained everyone in cages just like Trump, and he was simultaneously giving us open borders by employing catch-and-release. That's an obviously contradictory claim, but they can't get their talking points together because the WH can't either.

Obama's policy on asylees was actually quite terrible. Arguing Trump is doing anything similar is a bad argument as courts forced Obama to stop detaining asylee families as a way to deter them from entering. That's right. Obama didn't care that much more for asylees than Trump does. He was worried about the GOP hitting Democrats on the border issue.

It is possible to be against illegal immigration and open borders and not be cruel to people. It is also possible to talk about the issue without dehumanizing immigrants by calling them animals trying to "infest" our country.

I think non-asylees should be detained together, processed quickly, and removed from the country. Criminal charges aren't necessary for family cases unless there are other crimes there, or they've made multiple illegal entry attempts.
 
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Evan

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IMG_20180620_175313.jpg I notice Matt is ignoring that Paul Manafort's murderous past finally came to an end today. He pled guilty to 5 counts of manslaughter, but who really knows how many people he murdered over the years.


(Yes, I'm well aware it isn't true and ABC is investigating)

I actually feel kind of bad for Manafort. He's not eligible for the death penalty, so he'll have to spend the rest of his life in jail (this sentence is actually true). Remember, the President's Campaign Manager is in Federal Prison, and is highly likely to receive what effectively amounts to a life sentence if convicted. Trump says Manafort is innocent, but oddly enough he won't pardon him. Wonder why?
 

Evan

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Now that I've had time to review the actual Executive Order, I'm not convinced it changes anything. It may very well be kabuki theater. First, the order isn't retroactive to pre-existing cases. That's odd if you really think family separation is a bad thing. Secondly, the EO uses a variety of mealy-mouthed phrases like "to the extent allowable by law" and similar rhetorical devices. Thirdly, involving DoD may be a ploy to create custody/jurisdictional issues that are harder for a plaintiff to overcome if suing for relief.

Overall, there's no clear cut statement to stop separating families, and the devil will be in how DHS informs their employees to comply (if they even do) with the Executive Order. I have serious doubts it will change much, and what if does change may be less than what Trump & the WH billed it as doing. This would be very typical of this admin -- bait and switch is their middle name. I definitely think it is possible they did this to try to relieve pressure and change the subject.

We'll see if the outrage continues or if Trump's kabuki theater is effective in throttling the pressure. Remember, the children already separated are not receiving any relief under this order. Smart people should want to know why.
 

KoD

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It wouldn't surprise me if there's a few cases of children getting antipsychotics to calm them down, since they already give those drugs to adult migrants. Sounds like Geodon. Works great for agitated people, calms them down and knocks them out for half a day.
 

Kory

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It's also interesting to see the Democrats posturing, evoking comparisons to the worst mass murder in history. I don't think every policy that you disagree with is comparative to Nazi Germany. We've seen comparisons to Hitler since Trump entered the 2016 presidential race in that fateful escalator ride in June of 2015. But given the Nazi comparisons, it doesn't seem Democrats are interested in actually tying the President's hands. They have not signaled even attempting to work with GOP on this in Congress. Democrat leader Schumer said, “There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense,” Schumer told reporters. “Legislation is not the way to go here when it’s so easy for the president to sign it.”

LOL what? We're being told he is literally the second coming of Hitler. But, in the same breath, the branch of government designed to check the executive branch shouldn't be involved. Gimme a break. Democrats' actions, given all of their crocodile tears, haven't matched their rhetoric that we're now living in "Hitler Jr's" America. Sounds like a lot of political games. You know, where politicians use emotion fueled arguments after a tragedy/atrocity in an attempt to gain political traction. See gun control after Parkland pushed by Dems. See the Middle Eastern travel ban by Trump. The list is endless and it isn't exclusive to one party.
 

Evan

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Things like this and the NRA's descent into madness show how non-partisan groups dedicating to preserving and defending our rights are nearly extinct.

The ACLU gave up on defending the 2A quite some time ago. The NRA only protects the 2A in certain cases, and their current position on the 1st amendment is BS.

This is bad for our society and bad for our country. The fall of the American empire is accelerating.
 

Arcadia

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It's also interesting to see the Democrats posturing, evoking comparisons to the worst mass murder in history. I don't think every policy that you disagree with is comparative to Nazi Germany. We've seen comparisons to Hitler since Trump entered the 2016 presidential race in that fateful escalator ride in June of 2015. But given the Nazi comparisons, it doesn't seem Democrats are interested in actually tying the President's hands. They have not signaled even attempting to work with GOP on this in Congress. Democrat leader Schumer said, “There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense,” Schumer told reporters. “Legislation is not the way to go here when it’s so easy for the president to sign it.”

LOL what? We're being told he is literally the second coming of Hitler. But, in the same breath, the branch of government designed to check the executive branch shouldn't be involved. Gimme a break. Democrats' actions, given all of their crocodile tears, haven't matched their rhetoric that we're now living in "Hitler Jr's" America. Sounds like a lot of political games. You know, where politicians use emotion fueled arguments after a tragedy/atrocity in an attempt to gain political traction. See gun control after Parkland pushed by Dems. See the Middle Eastern travel ban by Trump. The list is endless and it isn't exclusive to one party.


Like I said, anyone paying attention can see the diabolical games being played here. And I mean diabolical in every sense of the word.
 

Matt

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View attachment 713 I notice Matt is ignoring that Paul Manafort's murderous past finally came to an end today. He pled guilty to 5 counts of manslaughter, but who really knows how many people he murdered over the years.


(Yes, I'm well aware it isn't true and ABC is investigating)

I actually feel kind of bad for Manafort. He's not eligible for the death penalty, so he'll have to spend the rest of his life in jail (this sentence is actually true). Remember, the President's Campaign Manager is in Federal Prison, and is highly likely to receive what effectively amounts to a life sentence if convicted. Trump says Manafort is innocent, but oddly enough he won't pardon him. Wonder why?




https://www.mediaite.com/tv/chyron-...ring-manafort-pleaded-guilty-to-manslaughter/
 

Evan

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Like I said, anyone paying attention can see the diabolical games being played here. And I mean diabolical in every sense of the word.



It's not wrong when Obama does it!

Can we all just admit that this is where we are as a society? It's not wrong if (insert politician I like) does it, or even if it is wrong (insert politician that I don't like) did something similar.

It's like:

Live babies in cages = bad
Dead babies in buckets = good

Live babies in cages = good
Dead babies in buckets = bad

Executive orders = bad when your guy is doing it

Executive orders = good when my guy is doing it

One of the primary reasons for this is because our society has lost our moral compass. God is no longer revered or feared by most people.
 

KoD

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I've been reading conservative, tea party, democratic, liberal, libertarian, socialism, etc.. forums for about 15 years. I know that's not an extremely long amount of time for a lot of people here who are wiser than myself, but every single one of those boards has a common denominator: Hitler. Nazi. Critiquing their political opponents by using examples from the extremist minority that's affiliated with them. Republicans get generalized by their most extreme tea party vocalists. Democrats get generalized by their most extreme liberal vocalists. Neither party is as extreme as each ones wants others to believe.
 

Evan

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I've been reading conservative, tea party, democratic, liberal, libertarian, socialism, etc.. forums for about 15 years. I know that's not an extremely long amount of time for a lot of people here who are wiser than myself, but every single one of those boards has a common denominator: Hitler. Nazi. Critiquing their political opponents by using examples from the extremist minority that's affiliated with them. Republicans get generalized by their most extreme tea party vocalists. Democrats get generalized by their most extreme liberal vocalists. Neither party is as extreme as each ones wants others to believe.

Here's a good representation of where each party stands today and where it stood in the past:

https://xkcd.com/1127/large/
 
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Evan

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So, about Melania's jacket. A really dumb unforced error, but I certainly don't believe it was intentional. But...you're in politics whether you like it or not. Hire more competent staff so you don't stumble like that in the future.
 

Evan

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This level of disingenuousness is indicative of how dishonest this administration is and how stupid they think they think the American people are. When the man at the top is is a mercurial and degenerate liar the rest of the apparatus adopts his strategies.

I'm getting sick of the gaslighting.

 

gangstonc

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So, about Melania's jacket. A really dumb unforced error, but I certainly don't believe it was intentional. But...you're in politics whether you like it or not. Hire more competent staff so you don't stumble like that in the future.
Yup. Bush got chastised for the fit of his suits and Michelle for wearing sleeveless dresses. Everything is scrutinized.
 

Evan

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Matt,

Still think WikiLeaks and Assange are doing anything other than trying to foment unrest in the US by stirring people up?



Yeah, it's public info. Yes, they are public servants. Yeah, there's some absolute scumbags at ICE enjoying harassing immigrants and separating children. But there's also decent people there.

Ironic how Assange's goals just always happen to align with Putin's goal of making the West destroy itself through internal strife.

I saw the ICE dataset when it was published by the guy who scraped it using a script. I said it was wrong then, and WikiLeaks tweeting this out proves that was the right assessment.

Repeat after me: Russia is our number one enemy.
 
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