Political Thread

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Bama Ravens, Jan 5, 2017.

  1. gangstonc

    gangstonc Member

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  2. Evan

    Evan Member

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    Since Trump has been in office for 6th months now, I'm curious to know what he has done to address:

    1. Debt
    2. Social Security/Medicare
    3. Political corruption
    4. The "rigged system"

    Speaking of elites and helping the American worker beat out the rigged system:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/amph...s-order-15000-new-visas-for-low-wage-workers/

    Remember, Trump is very familiar with this program because he used it all the time. His excuse was he'd have been a fool not to take advantage of it. What's his excuse now? Also, I posted about it, but I'm sure you saw than aboard AF1 on the way to France, Trump said he was open to Comprehensive Immigration Reform. Isn't one of the reasons you voted for him was because you were upset about H2Bs and mentioned that it had a personal impact in your family? And, I recall plenty about how you detested politicians for wanting CIR.

    So are you open to increased H2Bs and Comprehensive Immigration Reform now or is Trump making a mistake.

    Finally, I'm sure everyone has noticed we've gone from:



    I'm sure people have heard what Trump said today about meeting with Russian intelligence to get dirt on his opponent...



    What's ironic is that this is the millionth example of Trump saying do as I say not as I do. Why are his supporters so willing to overlook his absolutely unrepentant hypocrisy on nearly every single issue or item he discusses?

    This all goes back to 2008 in my opinion. Since 2008, the right wing/GOP talking head media did everything they could to label Obama an evil SOB that was dirty, corrupt, an existential threat to their way of life, and someone who was anti-American and anti-Christian. Although I have substantial disagreements with a large majority of Obama's policy actions, beliefs, and moral philosophies, I never once considered him evil or someone that hates America. But, that's what was sold to people for 8 years. He couldn't just be a bad President with bad ideas - - he had to be an immoral SOB that played dirty.

    That's the reason Trump was elected. It had nothing to do with jobs, the economy, or policy. It is that people decided they want an immoral SOB that gets in the gutter and wrestles in the mud just so they can twist the knife in the back of Democrats or anyone not like them.

    It isn't about policy because we know Trump's view on policy changes hourly based on who he spoke to last. It isn't about the decay of morals because Trump is one of the most immoral men to ever be President. It's simply about having then having their "own" evil SOB that can be against everything Trump voters think Obama and the Democrats stand for.

    I don't even think it was because Hillary was a historically terrible candidate. I truly believe it was about being anti-Obama/Democrat/Liberal/media.

    The reason Trump is such caricature of this idea is because he's a lifelong Democrat that is obsessed with media attention and media approval. No one cares more about the media and getting its approval than Trump does. Trump is actually very simple to understand, and that's why I think he's not really personally behind the idea of delegitimizing the media. He's just against them because they won't/aren't praising him. For Trump, it's no deeper than that. But there are people much smarter and strategic than Trump that are using his media fixation as a way to delegitimize and destroy the media because long-term it serves their goals.

    Some of these people are doing it so they can fill the information gap as a new alternative media (Alex Jones & Infowars, Cernovich & others in the alt-right that are grifters just trying to make money). What's ironic is a significant number of them are former liberals or had no real political ideology. Their ideology is personal profit by "building a brand." Others like Bannon are in it to destroy the idea of essential truth so they can better accomplish their political/policy goals. Finally, there are hacks like Hannity and Tucker Carlson that are a mixture. They are grifters trying to get ratings and make a buck, but they also see the benefit of getting rid of essential truth and replacing it with their own voice to help better achieve their political goals/policy, and they simultaneously enjoy great schadenfreude by twisting the knife in the back of their opponents.

    Ultimately, it's about one thing, and Trump embodies it so well. Make money, destroy your opponents with your newfound power, and if it feels good while doing so all the better. It is the ghost of Roy Cohn. That's why you never hear anything about shared sacrifice or doing what's best for the country as a whole. It's all about the individual.
     
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  3. ghost

    ghost Member
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    Where did Stormlover go? He would normally be chest deep in discussions like these? Anyone know what happened to him?
     
  4. Evan

    Evan Member

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    Trumpcare has failed. Although a serious subject, I can't help but stifle a small laugh because the promises to repeal Obamacare were always fraudulent lies simply to get votes.

    Healthcare systems don't completely play by the free market rules of supply and demand, and there's no precedent for what would happen if you decided overnight to completely remove regulation and government from the healthcare system. It's too important and too big to decide to 100% change it overnight.

    That's why a gradual phase-in of changes with numerous choices along with true competition is worth look. And to get that, you've got to look at Federalism. The states should be allowed to experiment thus allowing true innovation and "right-sizing" to take place.

    Personally, I'm a huge fan of health-savings accounts that can grow tax free backed up by a high-deductible or catastrophic policy. Premiums should be based not only on age and health, but also how much someone is saving and other factors. And government can't be eliminated completely just yet. You are still going to have to have some kind of subsidy system.

    We are never going to be able to move from one form to another with gradual changes and experimentation. If anyone says they have the answer to our healthcare system issues in one bill, idea, or plan then run and hide. No one does. But, perhaps, we can slowly get to a better system by trial-and-error and without causing people to have less coverage, lose coverage, or get frozen out completely.

    I had only briefly heard about this plan previously, but I think it sounds like a good starting point.

    Repeal and Compete: https://nyti.ms/2krVE3q

    Long and the short of it is what I was referencing earlier. Let's states experiment and make decisions that are best for their population and area. You would absolutely have to have some very basic minimum requirements for plans/covariance, but as the article references people could opt out.

    But, if New York decided they wanted to try single-payer they could do it. If Texas decided they wanted everyone to have high-deductible plans with HSAs then great. Sure, you'd have to establish rules about residency and other factors to make sure abuse didn't happen, but that's the beauty of a slow and gradual transition along with multiple options and competition.

    Don't get me wrong. This isn't a panacea, and the ideas I'm talking about could be completely wrong or blow-up catastrophically. But, by nature some states are less risk averse than other, and some will be very aggressive. Some will maintain the status quo. Ultimately, however, no one single idea will be able to sink us all, we can see what works and what doesn't, what we like and don't like, and actually vote about it and see our vote matter again.

    This is not to say that such an idea is without risk, but we've got to broaden our options to consider more than just single-payer or an immediately deregulated freeforall. After all, didn't such state level collaboration and experimentation lead to give greatest country on earth?
     
  5. Matt

    Matt Member

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    This is a perfect example of why every Republican Senator with a few exceptions needs to have a primary challenger. Toomey from Pennsylvania said they (R-Senators) never expected to be in this position because they were sure Hillary was going to win. So yes, they ran on repeal and replace only to get votes. This is the swamp that needs draining! Disgusting and vile people.
     
  6. Matt

    Matt Member

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  7. Evan

    Evan Member

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    Here's a bit of confirmation of the idea that some Trump's supporters just want to hate on Democrats and the media... policy and accomplishment are largely irrelevant:

    “I hate to say it, but I wake up in the morning looking forward to what else is coming,” Ray Scott, a Republican state senator who had campaigned for Trump, told me in June. One lawyer said bluntly, “I get a kick in the ass out of him.” The calculus seemed to have shifted: Trump’s negative qualities, which once had been described as a means to an end, now had value of their own. The point wasn’t necessarily to get things done; it was to retaliate against the media and other enemies.

    Butthe lack of legislative accomplishment seems onlyto make supporters take more satisfaction in Trump’s behavior. And thus far the President’s tone, rather than his policies, has had the greatest impact on Grand Junction. This was evident even before the election, with the behavior of supporters at the candidate’s rally, the conflicts within the local Republican Party, and an increased distrust of anything having to do with government. Sheila Reiner, a Republican who serves as the county clerk, said that during the campaign she had dealt with many allegations of fraud following Trump’s claims that the election could be rigged. “People came in and said, ‘I want to see where you’re tearing up the ballots!’ ” Reiner told me.Reiner and her staff gave at least twenty impromptu tours of their office, in an attempt to convince voters that the Republican county clerk wasn’t trying to throw the election to Clinton.

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.newy...4/how-trump-is-transforming-rural-america/amp

    Ever wondered HOW the Nigerians scammers made money by sending horribly written emails claiming to be a billionaire that needs you to wire him money and then be will make you rich? This is how! I'd love to see a study about the voting history of people that have been confirmed as being victims of the Nigerian advance payment scams.

    Trump is a practiced con-artist (he claims to be a multi-billionaire yet American banks have avoided him like the plague for years) that knows he's never held accountable. He doesn't keep his dramatic promises and is unapologetic about his repeated falsehoods and lies. In fact, his idol Roy Cohn taught him that if your critics attack you to immediately accuse them of the same or worse behavior. And that's what he does. The con must be maintained at all costs.

    Nigerian scammer victims are frequently angry at their family, bank, church, police, friends, neighbors, etc that try to convince them that they are being played by scammers. Those that try to help are accused as being jealous or thought to be immoral hypocrites trying to steal the "deal" for their self. They do not listen to reason, and they consider mainstream sources to be poisoned and biased because they believe everyone is trying to steal the money they are soon to receive. The average victim is taken for THOUSANDS of dollars and the scam normally lasts many months if not YEARS. During this time, many victims seek out other purported winners (which are actually scammers playing a role), withdraw from their normal relationships, and close themselves off to anyone that says they are being scammed.

    To even read more than 2 seconds of the typical Nigerian scammer email you have to be extremely gullible, or very susceptible to the idea that you can purchase or gain immediate success and financial reward.

    There are noticeable parallels between Nigerian scam victims and some Trump voters. Sadly, considerable damage almost always occurs before scam victims come to their senses. I think the idea of craving success and wealth is also part of the equation. They don't realize Trump inherited hundreds of millions of dollars, lost most of it, and has frequently had to have his entities declare bankruptcy. They believe he's what a successful and wealthy person looks, acts, and talks like because of his shameless self-promotion and hyperbole.

    I noticed that a significant number of Trump supporters are creating huge block lists on Twitter that people can use to block anyone that criticizes Trump or doesn't give him sufficient praise. They are creating a highly filtered bubble. I'm not joking one bit, and anyone that doubts me can go search Twitter.

    As I've stated before, Trump himself is not the real story or problem. It is the destruction of institutions and the rejection of facts and absolute truth. The concept of "alternative facts" and that the media isn't biased and prone to occasional mistakes, but instead fabricates sources, stories, and publishes outright "fake news," will be a significant legacy of this administration.

    Thankfully, the hardcore Trump cultists only make up a fraction of the overall population of out country. But, since they no longer believe anything but what Trump says or what Infowars publishes, how long before their rejection of anything outside their bubble has some very serious unintended consequences?
     
  8. Evan

    Evan Member

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    I kept wondering why Don Jr. and the Trump admin didn't really have a problem that the name of the Russian lawyer, the translator, and even the former Russian counter-intelligence agent got out in the media, but the mysterious 8th meeting attendee was staying well hidden.

    Well, today his name came out. Oh, he's just responsible for 1.4 BILLION in money laundering from Russia and former Soviet Bloc countries:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/29/business/laundering-of-money-seen-as-easy.html

    Not that any of this matters...if you are like most Trump voters.

    45% of Trump voters say they'd say Trump is doing a good job even if he shot someone on 5th Avenue. 32% say Don Jr. did NOT have a meeting with any Russians even though he has admitted it on Twitter, in interviews, and POTUS has admitted it. 72% believe the Russia story in general is "fake news," 77% of Trump voters want him to stay in office even if active collusion with Russia is proven, and just short of double believe that Russia wanted Hillary to win instead of Trump.

    On the flip-side, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren (gag), Corey Booker, Kamala Harris, and Biden would beat Trump in 2020. Biden by a 54-39 margin. Voters would also replace Trump with Obama (53-40) or Clinton (49-42), and if Zuckerberg runs he's in a dead tie with Trump at 40-40. The Rock, unfortunately, was not polled in this poll against Trump, but you can probably smell what the Rock is cooking if he were to run. 57% of voters think Trump is not honest, and 52% say he's a liar.

    Democrats lead the generic ballot 50-40.

    Survey/Poll:

    http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2017/PPP_Release_National_71817.pdf
     
    #1009 Evan, Jul 18, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  9. Evan

    Evan Member

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    Trump supported this bill. But even though he can shoot someone on 5th Avenue and still get 45% positive approval, even Republican voters didn't like the healthcare bill.

    From the survey that I posted earlier:

    "Only 20% of voters support the health care bill that was being considered by Congress until last night, to 57% who are opposed to it. Even among Republicans there's only very narrow support for it- 35% in favor, 34% opposed, and 31% not sure. Democrats (10/72) and independents (17/61) are each strongly opposed to it. 58% of voters say they want Congress to keep the Affordable Care Act in place and make changes to it as necessary, to just 35% who think the best path forward is repealing the ACA and starting over."

    Why would Congress pass something that is that universally unpopular. Ok, go ahead and primary them. I think that's an excellent idea. Trump and his acolytes should spend all their money and time on primarying Senators and Reps with safe seats so that they can drive up their negatives and have them lose to a Democrat. At this point I'm OK with that because it will help get Trump impeached faster. So, we totally agree. I hope every Republican Senator and House member gets primaried. In fact, I think they should do what Trump has started suggesting and just repeal Obamacare and try to figure something out later. I think that is a brilliant idea. They should time it so that it takes effect about 6 months before the 2018 mid-terms so that all the cancellation notices can be on people's mind right before they go and vote.
     
  10. Evan

    Evan Member

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    What's hilarious is Trump trying to claim he doesn't own the health care fiasco.

    "The GOP nominee called Obamacare a “disastrous law” and told supporters his first presidential act would be to repeal. "You're going to have such great healthcare at a tiny fraction of the cost, and it is going to be so easy," Trump said."

    Yes, fake news blah blah blah. It's on video. He promised it. But, he won't be held accountable because he posted a CNN wrestling meme, and that's what is really important.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v...pealing_obamacare_is_going_to_be_so_easy.html
     
  11. Evan

    Evan Member

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    Angry at what he says are unfair attempts to label him as a Hitler apologist, Fox News host hits back and silences his critics with receipts showing hundreds of donations to the Holocaust Museum, and a show dedicated entirely to reading tear-jerking stories about victims at Auschwitz.

    Tucker Carlson last week:

    "I beg your pardon. You cannot compare me to someone who made apologies for Hitler. You just compared me to a Nazi apologist because I asked the question... "

    https://www.aol.com/article/enterta...lson-ralph-peters-fox-news-argument/23026742/

    Just kidding, it's Tucker Carlson, so he does a piece comparing Gypsies to wild animals and implies they are a plague to society.

     
  12. Evan

    Evan Member

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    Seriously? Do I even have to say how shady this looks or why it is a bad idea? Especially considering it was only Trump, Putin, and a Russian translator?

    Is Trump intentionally trying to make it look like the Russians have something on him and Putin is his boss?

    Trump had second conversation with Putin in Germany: https://apnews.com/1f0fbc26aa484d4d9f48d055d2cac67b
     
  13. gangstonc

    gangstonc Member

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    http://tass.com/politics/956740

    Trumps second meeting is very suspect. It definitely goes against protocol for a president to have a one-on-one meeting with the leader of an enemy country. There were no other US officials present.
     
  14. gangstonc

    gangstonc Member

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    "Jon Huntsman called to see me. I said no, he gave away our country to China! @JonHuntsman"

    -djt

    I guess now Huntsman can give the country to Russia
     
  15. Evan

    Evan Member

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    Sessions is having DOJ adopt a policy that is wildly unconstitutional, and the absolute antithesis of Conservatism. It's the type of law that fascists and authoritarians love, though.

    What a hypocrite. State's rights and limited government my &$$.

     
  16. ghost

    ghost Member
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    Evan... the info I found on this said... "The Justice Department, with President Trump's support, will give new authority to law enforcement agencies to seize money, contraband and property when they can prove those assets are the ill-gotten gains of criminal activity."

    This is in conflict with what Paula Reid says "police can seize property from people not charged w/crime even in states where it's been banned."

    Can you clarify?
     
  17. ghost

    ghost Member
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    Sen John McCain has brain cancer. Glioblastoma the most aggressive type. Per wiki average survival expectancy 3 mo-2 yrs. God Bless and comfort him.
     
  18. Evan

    Evan Member

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    I don't know where you received that info, but read the DOJ letter that I posted. There's actually no conflict here between the two quotes -- the source you found that from seems to be using the DOJs spin on this matter. The only "proof" required is for a law enforcement officer to say they have probable cause to believe the property/crime was implicated in criminal activity.

    The favored method is to have a drug dog "alert" on a vehicle that they suspect has something they want to seize. Almost all these drug dogs are trained to alert whenever their handler wants. If they don't find cash, property, or drugs that they want to seize they let the person go. Almost impossible to do anything about it because the officer will just say false positives sometimes happen.

    But, if someone has cash/jewelery, or something of value, the local agency can immediately seize it and arrest the owner. They don't have to file criminal charges or get an indictment -- both require proving probable cause and presenting evidence to a judge/jury to get an indictment or pass a preliminary hearing.

    This allows local and state law enforcement to request federal adoption of cash/property that they seized even if the state/local laws prevent it.

    It is called adoption because the federal government is doing an end run on the existing state/local law as a local/state agency initiated the seizure and then as the feds to request forfeiture.

    A judge or jury don't review whether or not the officer had probable cause. The DOJ makes that determination, and someone has to file suit in federal court and spend a ton of money if they want to fight it.

    It makes the DOJ the judge, jury, and executioner, and sets a high bar to getting your property back because you have to pay any attorney up front or agree to give the attorney 1/3 or so of your property if you can't pay up front, and few lawyers will take such a case.

    The quote you are posting is misleading because it says they have to prove criminal behavior. 99% of people reading that would think that means getting a conviction or going before a judge. And that's not the case at all. They only have to tell the DOJ they had probable cause to seize the property. In fact, they don't even have to make an arrest. Many times they don't hoping that the property owner will be scared and never attempt to fight the seizure and forfeiture.

    Many cities and states have passed laws banning this from being done on their level, so that's why the DOJ wants to employ this trick. Since the Feds are the ones requesting the forfeiture, the local and state laws banning the practice don't apply even though a local/state agency made the seizure. The reason is because you can't ban law enforcement from a "seizure" without basically preventing them from ever collecting evidence. That's why the forfeiture aspect was banned. So, the Feds step in to do the forfeiture side and then share the proceeds with the local or state agency.

    It is a complete usurpation of state and local laws and absolutely unconstitutional.

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.nbcn...ictions-controversial-police-seizures-n784476
     
  19. gangstonc

    gangstonc Member

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    The man is a national hero. I hate this.
     

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